blood bath

[mmmender]

from lovely jo.......

"If you're lucky enough to decide to buy a copy of the soon to be reissued 'Garlands' by the Cocteau Twins, then track one has an error - one that was missed by everyone... it is now called Blood Bath - not Blood Bitch...

argh.

so make the most of this one - once we run out of print it'll be corrected... there'll be a few thousand of these knocking around... (its too late to stop the release happening)

so there you go... I would just like to point out that as its a word, rather than an incorrectly spelt word, it'd be the logical reason it was missed... by v23, Robin Guthrie plus others

whoops"

:D

[mmmender]

well seeing as 'bath' and 'bitch' are both real words it's quite understandable really. same reason why you can find misprints on other albums i suppose - but you still bought those, didn't you?

human error. it happens to the best of us.

[mattadore]

Might be worth snapping up a copy on the off chance it becomes a sought-after collector's item 20 years down the line...

Mayhap the munged song title will inadvertantly turn some death metal fan onto the CT's...

"Dude, I thought this was gonna be like Slayer but it's actually pretty phat!!!"...

Or not...

[Phil Lawton]

Just goes to show how much those nice 4AD people care about the music.

Rock on, Mojo!!

[mmmender]

phil, with all due respect - robin guthrie would have approved the final layout as well before it went to print so if you wanna scream at 4AD you'd best be screaming at mr. guthrie for missing it as well.

[multymfoiled]

It is frustrating when you buy a cd with an innacurate track listing, but at least Jo is kind enough to warn us...
It does seam to happen often, though. I have a copy of the Czars "Ugly People vs. Beautiful People" with the track listing incorrect, and it made my first listen very confusing.

[Phil Lawton]

phil, with all due respect - robin guthrie would have approved the final layout as well before it went to print so if you wanna scream at 4AD you'd best be screaming at mr. guthrie for missing it as well.

Lees

You've heard me speak...can you really envisage me screaming?

If it were anything I was bothered about, musically, I'd be upset. As it is.....

[mmmender]

'scream' isn't just a japanese cocteau twins bootleg phil - in this case, it's also a metaphor. my point is simply that this isn't just a 4AD mistake carried out by people who don't give a rats about their products. guthrie missed the typo as well. again, we are human (although sometimes mr. bush makes me question that statement). i digress.

[Phil Lawton]

guthrie missed the typo as well

He was probably excited at the prospect of being able to afford food again.

Shit...there goes my "stop being cynical" campaign.

[mmmender]

no offense to mr guthrie cos i adore the man - but does he look like he's starving to you?

[Phil Lawton]

He's just got big bones.

[watchlar]

Originally posted by mmmender
phil, with all due respect - robin guthrie would have approved the final layout as well before it went to print so if you wanna scream at 4AD you'd best be screaming at mr. guthrie for missing it as well.

makes you wonder how much his heart was in it...or if it's just for the cash :(

[simon raymonde]

now that IS funny.
and pathetic.

but yeah you are right, the Czars album first run had ALL the titles wrong, but just the order, not the spellings and that was a right cock-up i thought

incidentally there are a few fraZers rather than fraSers on some of these re-issues, so i guess no-one was paying due attention..

[multymfoiled]

Well, the Czars track-confusion certainly made it an adventurous first listen...

[superblast]

this is pretty funny! what a ridiculous title.

even though it should have been picked up by all the different people who approved the final layout there must be ONE fool responsible for having typed it wrong in the first place. i wonder who that was.

nothing is more annoying than a tracklisting mistake.

[mojo]

Originally posted by superblast
there must be ONE fool responsible for having typed it wrong in the first place. i wonder who that was.

to be fair, a lot of people checked the artwork and it was missed. I also know that it will be corrected as soon as its humanly possible... and I guess with Head Over Heels on vinyl (which the cd booklet info was taken from) being incorrect as far as Frazer/Fraser goes, its an easy mistake to make....

I just wouldn't want to call the person who did it a fool...!

[mmmender]

i just find it amusing considering the very first release of garlands on vinyl also had an error (see image)...and now 21 years later the re-issue on cd suffers from the same problem. here's hoping it wasn't the same person both times - i don't think i could live with the scrutiny!

http://ns.phaet.com/~leesa/cocteautwins/cgraphix/garlands_mis.jpg

[Phil Lawton]

and I guess with Head Over Heels on vinyl (which the cd booklet info was taken from) being incorrect as far as Frazer/Fraser goes, its an easy mistake to make....

Is this where I make a point about the motives/care behind the re-masters?

We've been told from the horse's mouth that these are a chance for us to hear the albums as they were originally intended, with the new artwork being closer to the vinyl edition than the CD version.

When names of tracks and band members (easy mistake...there were SO many people in the band, after all) can't be simply transcribed from one list to another, it just re-inforces my views.

I'd rant more, but there's nothing I can add that I haven't already said.

Toodles

Phil Walton

[Baddy2shoos]

roflmao

[someotherian]

oh come ON you people.. it's only a fuckin MISPRINT.. get over it!.

people make mistakes.. so what? and why is it annoying when this happens? it's not like you don't know what the track is really called.

sure, in an ideal world everything would be designed, printed, checked etc. correctly.. but y'know, these things happen.. people are fallible (and not just those linked to 4AD!).

i just don't see why it's such a big issue.

[willy]

Shouldn't errors be sneaked-in deliberately anyway, if only to remind the world that "only Allah is perfect."

Yours with humility.

[Phil Lawton]

i just don't see why it's such a big issue.

Ian

It's not a big issue as such. It's just an opportunity for me to have a carping session about 4AD, given my general opinion on the re-masters.

It does stick in the craw, however (when you take the blurb on here about the artwork, etc), when the whole idea was to offer an improved version of these releases.

On balance, though, I'd say the carping was my biggest motivator, being the petty, pedantic, bleating twat that I am.

[mattadore]

It would be nice to see 4AD give ctblue the box treatment, like they did with the recent Dead Can Dance box (I know, I know, DCD is not everyone's cup of tea)... that's a fantastic package, with luverly liner notes and a DVD of all the promotional videos from "Lonely Is An Eyesore" and "Baraka" as well as the "Toward The Within" concert film... however, I think Ivo and 4AD maintained a really solid working relationship with DCD untill the end, and I get the impression that the relationship between ctblue and 4AD was quite *strained* to say the least...

[mmmender]

i will buy the re-issues simply because i'm a collector and that's what collectors do....but not just for that reason, i also do want to hear the remastering that robin has done and i will pay to hear the effort that he put into this. i'm sure that robin didn't go into the studio and spend 43 minutes tweaking knobs, hit the power button, turned off the lights and went for tea. knowing the time and effort that mr. guthrie has put into the cocteau sound in the past - is this new effort not worth the same respect? yes, it's old material but he's given a new spin on it and i owe it to myself not to pass judgement until i've at least heard what he's done with the original sound. i assure you i'll be listening very closely.

as for the misprint on the sleeve, it's amusing but sad at the same time that not only did their former record label but robin himself overlooked it. again with this i'm trying to see it in a positive light and know that this too will just be added to this already long list of cocteau twins pressing fuck-ups. it is a sobering reminder that mistakes are made, it is the nature of things.

what does bother me is something that has always bothered me - the general air and lack of concern that 4AD has had for this band all along. i've never thought that 4AD devoted the time, money and effort to this band that they so deserved. and now years later, evidence of a still growing market has brought forth the re-issues. that being said i can't see 4AD spending a penny on trying to market these new releases cos they know that addiction, word of mouth and the desire to hear robin's brilliant work will get them sold. here is where i can see where phil is coming from and i can understand his disdain for "the re-issue machine", it is after all a money-making venture. are we to believe that a record label is solely in the business for making money? if that's the case then why a label like bella union? are they not in business built on a dream to produce excellent music, regardless of the sales figures? how many record labels do you know that split the sales 50/50 with the artist? i assure you this is NOT the case with 4AD.

i rest my case.

[Phil Lawton]

Lees

I know why you and all of the other potential customers will buy these and I'm glad that you can see why I won't.

The lack of marketing/word of mouth thing is something I touched on way back whenever it was and I'm convinced that I was right when I accused 4AD of skimming these boards - how else could Jo leap in just at the right time whenever details of the re-masters are mentioned? Or when I post scurrilous opinions of the whole venture?

4AD know what they've got in terms of both a product AND an audience, make no mistake.

I don't know the whole process of re-mastering, but what exactly does it involve? Weeks-worth of knob-twiddling or a few hours of computer-controlled filtering?

You know, I'd feel much better about this if RG actually stopped lurking in here and posted soemthing about this. It wouldn't make me change my mind, but it'd set the record straight somewhat.

[someotherian]

Originally posted by mmmender
are we to believe that a record label is solely in the business for making money? if that's the case then why a label like bella union?
surely the answer to this is that it varies from label to label.

some companies really do give a toss about the creativity of their bands, and while marketing them is obviously part and parcel of the business (which obviously must make money to survive), it's not seen as the 'be all and end all' of getting bands' music onto the streets and into the fans' hands.

sadly though, i suspect the main driving force behind most labels is to make as much money as possible while spending the least necessary. i've always admired the cocteau twins' attitude of 'we make the music we like cos we enjoy it.. if others do and it sells then ok'. but however worthy your intentions and beliefs, once you become involved with a record company that apparently shares quite different views, then i think claims of rampant money-grabbing are bound to surface.

it would just be nice if more labels cared about what they promote (to whatever degree!). after all, bands are what make labels their money.. without them they would have (and be) nothing. unfortunately it seems that some labels use the almost guaranteed success of some of their bands as an excuse to ignore those with less pulling power, on whom spending much money promoting becomes an unnecessary expense.

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I don't know the whole process of re-mastering, but what exactly does it involve? Weeks-worth of knob-twiddling or a few hours of computer-controlled filtering?
as for this issue.. i don't claim to know much about the details, but i suspect to a large extent the process takes as long as the person doing it wants to spend.

if i'm right in thinking that the basic idea is to produce new master mixes from the original source tracks, then how long it takes will surely depend on the effect that is required (whatever technology is used to achieve it).

and i would think someone like robin would be prepared to invest quite some time in getting things just 'right'.

[simon raymonde]

the wider issues apart, historically record labels exist by 'exploiting the catalogue'...take those words quite literally and you will be half way there.
While there are sunny days when everyone rides the waves and takes the foam, the tide does eventually go out ( i think i exhausted the sea metaphor there didn't i?)...and all that's left is to 'exploit the catalogue'. Now I am not suggesting that 4AD is a spent force, it may well lazarus its way back at some time, but re-whatevering is a fairly tried and tested way of rekindling the fire ( good grief this boy is etaphor crazee tonight!!!) and bringing the label profile back into view. Not totally abhorrent really. I mean we wouldn't do it, but then we are just starting out as a label right? We have new music to support. For a while there, CT, DCD and Pixies etc will all have shifted from our view, and it is only right and proper that people are nudged, to see just what influence some of this music may have had on what's going on today. Quite how one goes about nudging is of course up for discussion, but there is hardly a shameless marketing campaign on these cds. If I had the cds i probably would not consider buying them, but if i was curious what this band was like, it may be a good enough place to start. Nothing cynical about that.
I look for the cynical in everything. And indeed money for old rope is a considered opinion by some. But it is, let's face it, old rope. And i know a lot of people who could do with a bit of old rope. I could certainly do with the money for a bit of old rope!!

I am insane. I apologise.

[multymfoiled]

While the motives behind remastering, rereleasing, repackaging, and reselling may vary between the label and the artist (if the artist has any control by the time the re-whatever begins), I think in this case, given that Robin played a role in making these reissues happen, it warrents some attention. I'll certainly buy them, not only to hear the remastering work on the earlier material (which was noticable on the best of...), but to support Simon, Robin and Liz. I don't know how much you'll see from the release, but if it helps further your current work, I think it's worth it.

I'm also insane and will create whatever story makes me feel better about shelling out the little money I make these days on more cds! We can't forget that :eek:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by by the sea
with robin being a perfectionist and all, i'd imagine he must be pretty upset with "blood bath".

well he too missed the misprint when he was shown the sleeve before it was printed.

Originally posted by simon raymonde
I am insane. I apologise.

perhaps that's why you seem to fit in here so nicely. i too am happily off my rocker.

[Phil Lawton]

I was about to post yet another episode of "Lawton Gets On His High Horse" in the light of some of the previous posts, but it's a waste of my time.

If you're of a mind to buy these re-masters, then you will. If you're not, you won't. I'm disappointed that, yet again, it's only Simon who seems bothered to talk to the people who're the target audience for Robin's pet project.

Speaks volumes for the personalities involved.

Thank you, mate.

[algol]

I for one, am thrilled to re-purchase some of my faves, especially "Garlands". My audio equipment has progressed a great deal since "Garlands" initial issue, and I'll happily pay to hear a version with improved sound (hopefully). The icing on this particular cake is that members of the band actually have a hand in it! Whoo! I'll admit that I may be a rare bird -- I don't bat an eye at picking up a new version of a DVD I already own if it is an improved transfer, enhanced audio track, etc.

algol

[mmmender]

"Blue Bell Knoll and Heaven Or Las Vegas could well go mid price in the US this year - the next date we can mid-price from is July this year, and the catalogue wont be released until July at the earliest in the US - but because v23 didn't do these designs, they're classed as being different.

Robin should be remastering the last two fairly soon, and its likely they'll take on elements of these reissues (like the metallic underneath the cd tray) but it will be a bit different, due to no v23 involvement - its still under discussion though"

-jo

[mattadore]

Not sure what mid-price is...? But, I got HOLV for $10 at Virgin last weekend (along with my snazzy re-issue singles box)! :)

Not re-mastered, mind you, but that one sounds pretty fantastic to begin with.

[Phil Lawton]

Robin should be remastering the last two fairly soon, and its likely they'll take on elements of these reissues (like the metallic underneath the cd tray) but it will be a bit different, due to no v23 involvement - its still under discussion though"

HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought the first four were being done because the technology wasn't as advanced as that used on BBK and HOLV? If I could be bothered, I'd dig out the quote from the original thread that said everything post-Treasure was as Robin et al intended it to be.

Makes my earlier reply to Tym rather poignant.

As Bertrand Russell once said to the Queen "They're just taking the piss."

I feel very disillusioned.

My last word on the subject.

[mmmender]

phil, jo's quote is referring to the artwork and has nothing to do with the technology or the remastering so you've left me a bit confused by your last comment.

:confused:

[Phil Lawton]

Lees

Ok, I stand corrected on the re-mastering bit.

So...are you saying that no-one will buy them if they have new artwork? I can think of at least two people who will.

It's a con.

[Phil Lawton]

Oh, and one more thing....a message for the person or persons who have been mailing me from bogus Hotmail accounts to slag me off for my stance on the re-masters -

If you're too spineless to use your real names, don't bother me again. Your cowardice is pathetic.

Thank you.

[watchlar]

someone is being mean to PHIL???? :mad: :eek:

BASTARDS!!!!

[Phil Lawton]

Watchy

No, no...someone being "mean" to me I can take, understand and, in some cases, deserve.

Mails which accuse me of ( and I'll try to quote them verbatim) being "a c*nt who ties to spoil it for the rest of us"/"...Robin and Liz will read this and decide not to issue the remasters you selfish c*nt" (that one made me laugh out loud....preposterous idea)/"...Why don't you fuck off and die?"/"...You think that everyone thinks you are funny and you're not. Leave the real fans alone, you prick"/"If you hate the Twins why do you bother going to Mmmender's site, you c*nt"/"You're going to fucking die if you make 4AD cancel these albums, you piece of shit."

What makes this even more of a disappointment is that the person or persons concerned have swapped e-mails with me in the past. They're all from bogus Hotmail accounts, Hotmail being barred from this site (as far as I know), so no-one can log on and then mail me through going to my profile and using the "Mail Phil Lawton" option.

No, this is someone I've swapped mails with and who has my mail account name. Very sad that the action of free expression seems to be anathema to someone.

I've also had three virus mails in the last week, all hot on the heels of one of these mails. If I discover who they came from, I'd just like to warn them now that they're saved onto floppy and will be turned over to the UK police. I don't know what the law is anywhere else in the world, but the spreading of virus laden software is punishable in the UK under the Computer Misuse Act of 1997 and carries a minimum one year jail sentence.

Be advised - I'm not fucking about.

To allow this person or persons some space to cool off a bit, I'm going to stay out of here for a while. If they still have a problem with me, then there really is nothing I can do.

[mattadore]

:eek:

How entirely awful, Phil. Be well and don't let the bastards get you down, mate!

[fredofla]

....hang in there, Phil.

this newsgroup needs as many strong and independent voices as it can get.

and, i find myself more in agreement with you on most things, than not.

whoever it is that has been harrassing you in this way should be immediately banned from this fine place.

cheers.


FRED of LA

[watchlar]

ouch phil... :(

[Phil Lawton]

don't let the bastards get you down

Matt

Thanks, but I have bigger things to worry about presently than these gutless twats. As far as my "getting me down" list goes, they're somewhere towards the bottom.

See ya.

[REPLICESS]

Well, if the person/s responsible are reading this, you are an immature twat and I hope you get what's coming to you.

[Phil Lawton]

this newsgroup needs as many strong and independent voices as it can get.

Fred - apparently not.

Well, if the person/s responsible are reading this, you are an immature twat and I hope you get what's coming to you.

Rep - I doubt it.

[mattadore]

People are funny though, aren't they? Trying to enforce their own little police state. With all due respect to Phil, I can't imagine that his voice of dissent would be enough to trigger a retraction of the planned reissues. This individual obviously just has an axe to grind and Mr. Lawton is unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end.

[mmmender]

phil, forward the emails to me (leave off the virus though please) and i'll cross reference the IP addresses with everyone on this board and tell you if they're from a registered board member or not. i certainly hope that's not the case though.

[multymfoiled]

It's absolutely rediculous that someone would get so hung up on Phil's opinions that they would act so childish. I do understand now, though, why hotmail and yahoo acounts aren't allowed to register here (I have one which I tend to use for boards such as this, and found that a surprise at first. But I'm a nice person. I promise!).

Post in Peace! And whoever is doing this, please stop.

[mmmender]

yeah it is childish and i've lost count at how many times i've been mailed similar letters and or viruses.

[mmmender]

i can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself but i for one would never think you'd do something so childish. why even suggest it? of course it's not you!

the person who hides behind sad, pathetic words is the person strangled by their own misfortune, anger and general dissatisfaction. these are the people your mother warned you about.

[Phil Lawton]

One last before I go - no, BTS isn't the hand behind the poison pens. No matter what anyone may think of Keith, he's just not that sort of person.

One thought that did occur to me this evening....EVERYONE's e-mail address was on both Leesa's mail telling the members that the boards were back up and the hoax mail about forwarding Microsoft generated chain mail for cash.

Which means it could be anyone, sadly.

See you all after I've finished lying low for a while....I can do without this sort of shit at the moment.

[watchlar]

Originally posted by mmmender
phil, forward the emails to me (leave off the virus though please) and i'll cross reference the IP addresses with everyone on this board and tell you if they're from a registered board member or not. i certainly hope that's not the case though.



OOOOHHH I love when Leesa kicks ass!!!!


roflmao

[ScottL]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
...
I don't know the whole process of re-mastering, but what exactly does it involve? Weeks-worth of knob-twiddling or a few hours of computer-controlled filtering?

Good question, that's about all I care about in this debate...I know much of what could be involved..but wonder very much how he's gone about it, remastering CT tunes. And with remasters in general(and how CT's remaster might compare to other bands...Rush did remasters of some of that late 70's stuff..I've not done any side by sides).
I did think some songs sounded crisper on Stars and Topsoil(Pearly Dewdrops comes to mind) and also offered slightly better distinction(separation of different sound sources in the mix). Many however were hard to tell(and I have a pretty good stereo/speaker setup).

[mojo]

Originally posted by ScottL
The lack of marketing/word of mouth thing is something I touched on way back whenever it was and I'm convinced that I was right when I accused 4AD of skimming these boards - how else could Jo leap in just at the right time whenever details of the re-masters are mentioned?

hm. I just really wanted to add here, I've been a fan of the Cocteaus since I was thirteen, I thought it'd be nice to be a part of this community, although time doesn't really allow it at the moment with work, and I do have a work angle, yes. But I have also been a fan for a long time.

Of late I've been trying to check the boards daily, before that it was every couple of weeks (especially as the official forum which I've been a member of for a good three years under just "jo" is pretty dead) but I kind of hate the way this kind of makes out I don't care.

I point out things to the person who runs backcat, but that's normally what people are saying. (not spying, things like "what is happening with that bloody DVD?")

But I'll step back a bit, Leesa copies over posts I do from the official forum, I know my contribution here isn't the be all and end all, I just hoped it was another perspective to an argument. (I'm not complaining, please don't think I am)

sorry if anyone thinks I'm only here to represent my job, that was never the entire case.

to try sum up here, there wont be a lot of marketing on these releases, as there isn't a massive marketing spend. That may well be different in the US when 4ad get the rights back, and the entire remastered/repackaged catalogue will be released at mid-price later this year. All we really want is shops to have these albums in stock, because there's no reason why they shouldn't, other than over the years, they stopped.

Hopefully I'll have sent out all the 4ad subscribers copies by the end of the day today, so all four albums will be available from the 4ad store from Thursday night - but if you want to support the Cocteaus and you want to buy these albums, best bet would be to get them from HMV and places like that, where they'll keep restocking them, like it should have always been.

hope some of this is useful :)

jo

[ScottL]

CORRECTION: mojo...you quoted Phil above but used my name...just wanted to make that clear!!


Man! I had not read the whole thread when I posted my last reply...having read the explosion that ensued...very sorry to hear that Phil. That email sounds aweful...I should point out that anyone may be a member on here with a registered email, and now having your email, could then send you such crap from bogus hotmail accounts...all this is a certain downside to email servers on the internet....security is not that well implemented, identity is easily faked. Good luck.

[mmmender]

jo, i welcome and appreciate your input so i certainly hope you don't let a difference of opinion stop you from popping in!

[Adam]

I'm acquainted a bit with printing, so I know there is something like PROOFREADING. Come on, there are about 20 words to check out for heaven's sake... Blood Bath, Jesus!!!!!!! For me it's totally fucked up. Print it again, I don't care...

[Adam]

I've send an e-mail to Sonic, Polish label which releases CT in my country, to correct this mistake. But I'm sure they won't give a shit.

[mmmender]

adam, they are reprinting it but there will quite a lot of the initial pressings going out with the misprint. i'm sure by the time it's released in the US they'll have all been 'fixed'.

UK release date: feb 10th
CAN release date feb 11th
USA release date? no clue but i'm sure jo would be able to tell you

[Adam]

leesa, what a relief!

[kookaburra]

I am considering editing all my copies of Garlands to read "Blood Bath", just to keep up with the times.

Can anyone, amidst all this inanity, lend me a white marker?