4ad rip us off again......

[Coalmind]

A big thumbs down to 4ad, they've just ripped us off with the 4 cocteaus reissues(even though they are an improvement on the original cds), and now a year after a massive 4cd box set of dead can dance they're now releasing a double cd best of called Wake,incidentally most of the tracks on wake were on the box set.Why are 4ad doing this to us fans?Whats going to be next?hmm let me guess, all the cocteaus singles "remastered"so we buy them for the 3rd even 4th time?ive already got 3 cd singles of loves easy tears for f**** sake!!!Madness!how about going through the 4ad archives there's got to be loads of stuff tucked away that no ones ever heard, they could release a lovely big box set project with all unreleased demos tracks from the big major 4ad bands. I remember waiting for stuff to come out in the late 80's early 90's on 4ad and you could guarantee it would all be excellent, happy days for those of us that remember.......:mad:

[fredofla]

an album of CT b-sides and rareties would seem far more logical than all of these remastered shennanigans.

sheesh!

i still haven't even heard the Frosty The Snowman or Winter Wonderland covers.

....gotta feelin i'm not not the only one, either.

i can easily think of a slew of songs that existed only on now long out-of-print extended singles.

ah, but what's the use.

[kookaburra]

Frosty and Winter Wonderland have been available on compilations for years now. Try The Edge of Christmas for WW, and The Coolest Christmas for Frosty.

[mborum]

I sympathize with you in spirit, but I'm going to defend 4AD here.

From what I understand, 4AD are no longer truly "independent," and haven't been for several years. They don't make all their own decisions anymore. They are owned by Beggars Group, which is in turn owned by BMG--one of the largest media companies on earth.

Companies like BMG put enormous pressure on their operating units (in this case, Beggars Group), who in turn put pressure on their labels (in this case, 4AD) to generate REVENUE. It isn't about art, or quality or what fans want; it's all ultimately about money.

While it's a given that labels like 4AD, by their nature, are not going to be signing up monster platinum-selling acts, they must find other ways to justify their existence in the massive corporate environment in which they operate. Since they DO own the rights to some very influential and formerly big-selling artists like Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance and Pixies, they are under a great deal of pressure to put those assets to work to generate money and maintain cashflow. If they don't do this, it's no skin off BMG's nose to shut them down and have some other label take over the management of the 4AD catalogue. THAT would be disastrous.

Thankfully, BMG understands the power of the 4AD "brand," and wants to leverage that, as well, to its advantage.

Is this to say that 4AD doesn't genuinely WANT to put out these reissues and remasters for the sake of the music? No! But I'm willing to bet that they aren't doing it just for a laugh.

As for the quality of the artwork or packaging, I would also argue that that goes along with everything I said above. They're trying to squeeze a lot of revenue out of those assets without having to spend a lot more money on gorgeous new packaging (although I think we all wish they would put together a more compelling product).

Could the whole product have been better? YES! I'm certain that it could. But we all know that giant record companies like BMG, at the end of the day, don't really care much for what we REALLY want, and even 4AD's powers are limited, even if they're on our side (which I believe they are).

It's okay to be bitter and disappointed, but I suggest you aim higher than 4AD when throwing darts, because I have a feeling they're not entirely to blame.

Michael

[mojo]

may as well answer while I'm popping in here :)

this album is a replacement for the Box Set - please don't buy it if you already have the box set... the only new things are some pictures in the booklet.

The Box Set was a nightmare to manufacture and get right (you would not believe the manufacturing hassles we had with it) and was only limited to a few thousand in all PAL territories, plus it was quite costly to make.

This Best Of is just to replace the items, while keeping some of the songs still available, plus getting 'Toward The Within' on DVD proper for the first time, rather than as a part of the Box Set.

again, this is really just to get to the wider audience and lesser so the hardcore fans, as they'll all have the box set, with more rare tracks.

hope that clears this up anyway :)

jo

[mborum]

Hey, Jo I didn't know you were in here. Do you agree or disagree with the diatribe I just wrote?

I 100% agree about the DCD thing. That box set HAD to be limited, and wouldn't have been a huge selling item anyway if it hadn't been. The redux reissue is a smart thing to do, period.

Michael

[mojo]

Hi Michael!

just a quick reply, but god no! 4ad are no way at all affiliated with BMG!

Ages ago, back in the early 80's, Beggars had a loan from BMG to basically help finance Gary Numan and The Cult and other large releases around that time (there's more about it in the Beggars Banquet history section) but the loan was fully repaid years and years ago

the Beggars Group is the collective name for all the labels I work for, so that's Beggars Banquet, 4ad, Wiiija, Too Pure, Matador, Mantra, XL and Rex - but its all 100% independant!

The sad thing is, 4ad hasn't sold a lot of records for a long time - when Ivo sold back his share of 4ad to Martin Mills at Beggars Banquet, I was coming into work to see a lot of depressed 4ad staff, as the music people *should* be hearing, just wasn't.

Unfortunately most of them lost their jobs, with a few people moving into the Beggars Group, who then took over all the 4ad day to day running, until Chris Sharp took over, with Ed Horrox as the A&R person, as there's still a hell of a lot of 4ad music out there... it wouldn't have made sense for 4ad to fold (despite some people saying so) and its by far the strongest label in the Beggars Group, as far as history goes.

When backcat moved into the Beggars Group, it was taken over by someone who has been responsible for every single Beggars reissue or best of, someone who knew what he was doing and would try keep each release as close as possible or improve it, as much as it possibly could be- while still giving the relevant artists full control (although in the end in some cases, it'd happen anyway, there's some forthcoming release on Wiiija which is a bit of a one like that at the moment).

that's basically as it stands, but the main problem as far as 4ad goes is that the catalogue needed to start selling again - a lot of titles were full price (I'm not sure why the Cocteaus was kept at full price for so long, but at least that's been put to rights now, thank god) and its just been getting stores stocking items again, and just getting people to remember what 4ad is about, without spending too much money in the process so that releases can continue to happen...

this is mainly my opinion, not a company one, but how I see it (keeping it as fair as possible). I can't really criticise any releases, because the ones so far have existed with full approval of the artists, and to disagree with that would mean I'm not really supporting it... I do like the Cocteaus reissues though, although I would be the person that would be being targeted, as I never bought them on CD the first time - I only have vinyl copies...

that's me :)

[mborum]

Well, thank god I'm wrong! I love it when the truth is so much better than the worst-case scenario. I really had no idea that Beggars were no longer affiliated with BMG. What a relief.

Thank you for this enlightening look into how 4AD operates these days. It's fantastic to know that you're still working in way that focuses on what's best for the artists.

I, myself, may or may not buy the reissued Cocteau Twins. I'd LOVE to hear them, and some of that new art work might be nice to have, but I can't decide.

Everyone should keep in mind, though, that another Cocteau Twins record sold is money in the pockets of 4AD (who clearly ARE on our side) and in the pockets of Robin, Simon and Liz (eventually, right?) Sometimes, rewarding those who deserve it is good enough in itself.

Michael

[mmmender]

i'd like to know if ANY of the remasters sales money gets into the hands of robin, simon and liz!

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender
i'd like to know if ANY of the remasters sales money gets into the hands of robin, simon and liz!

oh GOD yeah! there's no way they'd not get any kind of royalty from this! all the bands get money from sales, whatever the albums are

[mmmender]

jo, that's good to hear. however - does it make a difference in terms of how much they get based on where we buy them from? i assure you that this makes a difference to myself and many of the members on this board and your answer will affect where we shop!

[dprid]

I fear that sometimes we allow our obsession and rose-tinted sentiments to overcome reality, so let’s take a look.

Record companies are not philanthropic organisations, they have to make a profit, or at least not lose money. One of the ways all record companies do this is to use existing popular material repackaged and remarketed to subsidise the generation of new talent. Why? Because it provides revenue for minimal outlay. How many times have The Beach Boys, Rolling Stones or The Who been redone? This is no different to practically every other business in existence today and is an extremely sensible marketing policy.

What about 4AD? They’re a small company who I would suspect can only survive on the strength of their back catalogue. Their current roster, whilst musically interesting, is hardly going to set the music world alight based on the number of units shifted. So they decide to reissue a selection of LPs by one of their best selling groups. They could just reissue them at midprice, they could rework them and sell them at full price but instead they get one of the original band members to remaster them, generate new art work (with input from band members), and then sell them at midprice anyway. A lot more than could probably be expected from the big labels.

Let’s look at economics. How many copies do you think they’ll sell? How many Cocteau Twins fans are there out there who’ll care enough to buy them? (remember we have 245 members on this board worldwide and maybe 50 who post regularly). Robbie Williams can sell a million CDs in the UK, and he’s about the biggest seller around at the moment. By comparison how many copies of four 15 to 20-year-old albums can 4AD shift? 50,000? 100,000?? I would imagine that 4AD would be absolutely delighted if they shift 100,000. So that’s maybe £400k to £500K income after production costs, distribution, retailers markup etc. Now take away costs of the remastering, new artwork, royalties etc and it suddenly looks like a lot less profit. Add a marketing campaign (for a product with limited appeal) and suddenly there’s not much in it at all, a couple of hundred thousand tops. That may pay staff costs for a year, or office costs perhaps. Peanuts really!

So lets have a little more realism please people. We have a product remastered by a member of the band who presumably cares about the music so did a good job. That’s about as close to a new album as we’re going to get from a band that no longer exists. Many artists never get this treatment – their fans are left with only what was output at the time. Nobody is forcing you to buy them, and even if you do all four cost little more than a good night out. Hardly a big price to pay to hear the results of Robin’s time and effort methinks?

[REPLICESS]

Originally posted by mojo


Ages ago, back in the early 80's, Beggars had a loan from BMG to basically help finance Gary Numan and The Cult and other large releases around that time


(I'm a HUGE Numan fan btw....)

I have an interview with Martin Mills stating that without Gary's success, BB would have been in big trouble and that he owes alot to him. :)

I don't really see a problem with re-issues, after all - you don't have to buy them and it would, of course, be up to Liz, Robin & Simon to release any unreleased/unheard material. Sure Simon has addressed this already though ........ ????

[randomrob]

Im just glad theyre still reprinting their stuff, regardless of the format... it means the twins popularity is still recognized... god help us if theyd been published by an american label- theyd of long since disappeared, yknow?;)

[someotherian]

Originally posted by by the sea
i would have loved some unreleased tracks added though.
well you got one. it's called Blood Bath. ;) :D

[ScottL]

Originally posted by by the sea
congratulations to dprid for posting that lovely piece.

i will finally fess up to having ordered all four re-masters only because i want to hear these recordings so loud and clear that my head explodes.
i would have loved some unreleased tracks added though.
oh well.
my advise to everyone is try and overlook the messy designs and just flow with the music.
as the saying goes...it's what's on the inside that counts.

Yeah, me too, thanks for the eloquenty reply too dprid. It cost me $70 after shipping to order all 4 from 4ad direct shipped UPS to central USA...comes to $17.50 each after shipping...little steep but I decided not to wait.

[Brewstone]

Didn't know there was another thread discussing this, or I'd have saved some ammunition for it.

I note with some amusement that Mojo didn't jump in with any comment while the general feeling of the site was that the remasters were a waste of time.

What is it exactly that you do at 4AD, Mojo? A&R? Quality control? If so, then please see my comments on the "Bravo, Mr Guthrie" thread. If you just order the Tippex and paper clips, then you're OK.

Gayboy27UK, your comments at the head of this thread have been glossed over - just to let you know that I fully agree with everything in your post. Just in case you hadn't worked it out, I haven't bought the remasters and, out of principle (the principle being that they're a catchpenny marketing strategy), will never buy them.

[Brewstone]

Dprid

Your comment

Now take away costs of the remastering, new artwork, royalties etc and it suddenly looks like a lot less profit. Add a marketing campaign (for a product with limited appeal) and suddenly there’s not much in it at all, a couple of hundred thousand tops. That may pay staff costs for a year, or office costs perhaps. Peanuts really!

goes somewhat at odds with the stance taken by 4AD in another thread on this subject (popular, isn't it?), in that they were released by Robin Guthrie to let the fans hear what they should have sounded like. And how much were they expecting to earn from a long defunct, cult band?

As I said in another thread, if 4AD depend on their back-catalogue to earn revenue, then their A&R department should be fired and replacements who have a handle on new music put in place very quickly.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Brewstone I note with some amusement that Mojo didn't jump in with any comment while the general feeling of the site was that the remasters were a waste of time.

how strange! what would you like me to say? there's plenty of talk going on on the 4ad boards about it, which I've been replying to - unfortunately I don't get as much time to reply here. I'm guessing you go there, as you mentioned it elsewhere to Leesa. It doesn't really matter what my opinions are about the remasters, I've talked about it enough on the 4ad boards, so may I suggest you check there. (although you can have two letter usernames there, so I post as jo)

What is it exactly that you do at 4AD, Mojo? A&R? Quality control? If so, then please see my comments on the "Bravo, Mr Guthrie" thread. If you just order the Tippex and paper clips, then you're OK. hahahahahaha, that's funny. sorry. I can't answer that - well actually, I have answered that already in some other thread around here - I'd suggest if you want to mock me (as I feel as if its a bit like that with what you said on the second paragraph) that you drop me an email, what with netiquette and all that. But I don't think we've really got a huge amount to say to each other really, do we :)

[Brewstone]

I'd suggest if you want to mock me (as I feel as if its a bit like that with what you said on the second paragraph) that you drop me an email, what with netiquette and all that. But I don't think we've really got a huge amount to say to each other really, do we

Sorry - did I touch a nerve?

[mojo]

not at all, but like I said, it might be better if you took this to email really otherwise it just looks a bit childish.

thanks for the apology though!

[Brewstone]

Mojo

I promise to be nice from now on.

Have you got a boyfriend?