Bravo, Mr. Guthrie, BRAVO!!

[Colin]

I am a long-time Cocteau-devotee, but a newbie to these discussion boards. (This is me 3rd posting!) So I am reluctant to speak ill of my new Cocteausian-amigos, but I must say that Robin's remasters are truly a significant contribution to those who love the Cocteau's work, and all the complaints about packaging, typos, shopping traumas, and the cynicism toward label capitalists etc., etc., have obscured the significance of his fine achievement. (I'm a bit embarassed for Robin that a loyal fan base has reacted thus to what I'd imagine is such detailed, perhaps tedious and hard work.)

Excuse me for borrowing a one-time campaign slogan, but "It's the music, stupid." Or more elementally in this case, its the sound.

I have always loved these early albums, but admit I had come to think of them as "quaint," largely because of the poor sound quality. I convinced myself that this primative sound was part of their 'character.' When one has no choice in the matter, it is easy to make such justifications. (I actually enjoyed one of the CT-cover tribute records only because it gave me a taste of what the early work might have sounded like if it were well recorded.)

To date I have only bought Garlands and HOH, and expected I would have to play them side-by-side with the originals to tease-out marginal improvements, but in fact the improvement (as the sound) is crystal clear on a decent discman. The separation of various instruments in vastly improved; white noise is gone (most noticable in the silence between tracks). Muddied-no-more, my ears are virgin to these oft-enjoyed songs.

I adore the work of Vaughn Oliver, and have purchased one of the books of his work. I imagine all CT fans agree the art and the music are a great marriage, but please don't let your disappointment on art/packaging, etc overshadow the greatly improved sound. (Having said that, my major complaint is the art on each of the discs being the same. This would make sense if they were sold as a set, but not as stand-alone products. Now when I sort through my discs I'll have to actually read the lables. Uggg!)

So, to repeat myself (and as others have said here and there), great job Mr. Guthrie! Thanks for pouring youself into this effort. It could not have been easy to open up old work again, but I hope it was rewarding. Short of new material, I cannot think of any better gift to your fans. (Looking forward to your solo, BTW)

Bravo!!

[mmmender]

you're right......it is about the music. but it's really not that simple. the content is of course why we're here after all but you cannot deny that the packaging and marketing of this band is also important to discuss. sure the cocteaus did it for the love of music, but they do need to eat. let's not be completely unrealistic here - money is a factor. label politics have played their part in the cocteaus history. 4AD founded themselves on divine music and the backbone of v23 design, did they not? if the package didn't matter at all - would you have been ok with buying your remasters in a plain white card slipcase with no artwork?

i'm not saying robin's work isn't brilliant, in fact i've never said anything even remotely like that. what i did say is that this music deserves more care and attention because i worship this band like no other. they deserve to have the integrity of their brilliant first release remastered and released at least ONCE without a misprint. they deserve to have their former label back them up on sales and promotion. they deserve to have international respect and support from their former label, retail outlets and suppliers that they're not getting. their (very) dedicated fan base deserves to be able to access the discs on the scheduled release date.

what is important are these remasters and the time and effort that robin put into producing them.....and having them not even remotely advertised, supported or even properly available fuck's me right off. HOW CAN I SHOW MY SUPPORT FOR THE BAND IF I CAN'T EVEN BUY THE DAMN CD's?

i'm wondering if you really even bothered to read any of my previous posts on this topic.

[watchlar]

clapping

[Maria Jose]

I ' m with Mender about the remastered CDS.
It ' s simply outrageous that there has been no clear plan behind this whole thing, no set criterium , like releasing 1 / 2 CDs a month , with some advertising backing it , it appears quite random , the spelling mistake testifies to this .
I ' ve only checked the NME ' s website but didn 't find any info .
Can anybody British - based confirm the lack of publicising ?
Went to Tower Records Osaka last Friday to no avail , though the CDS
have made it to Tokyo , a friend of mine tells me .
For a label that based most of its history , pride , prestige AND sales on this band , it is rather disappointing .
Of course , it ' s the music that counts, but we all know that this band and the fans , current and, more importantly, future , deserve a lot more .
Has Mr Raymonde got anything to say on the matter ? ? ?:confused:

[Colin]

I reread my original -- sorry if it sounds a bit suck-up-ish. But I stand by it.

I don't want to question anyone's devotion or respect. It is obvious from this gorgeous site that other fans (leesa especially) have done a better job expressing their love than I.

But I hope I've offered a bit of perspective on a conversation that's veered off course, guys. It is about the music; and give some love for Robin's very hard work on this. I'm guessing some got very built-up waiting for this to come out & had some hopes dashed. These are real issues. But the music comes first to me, and the rest is way down the list. But yes, I would accept them in a plain envelope -- I'd have tucked them in with the originals in the sleeves I've loved before.
;)

I'll bet Robin's got a thick skin and isn't hanging on our words for his ego, but despite whatever reason we have for disappointment, I just think our appreciation for his work shoud come before (and more volumninously than) the rest. . .

As a site newbie, I add Thanks, mmmmender, for this site to help keep our love alive. (Oh, now I sound suck-up-y again!)

[mmmender]

bts, thank you for your kind offerings but i'll delicately decline.

[willy]

Originally posted by mmmender
bts, thank you for your kind offerings but i'll delicately decline.


Well I'll be free for the rest of today.

[REPLICESS]

:eek:

[someotherian]

Originally posted by mmmender
bts, thank you for your kind offerings but i'll delicately decline.
now, bts.. if you'd offered to feed her makhani chicken... ;)

[willy]

Originally posted by someotherian

now, bts.. if you'd offered to feed her makhani chicken... ;)


And whipped her with a dead salmon* whilst dancing naked to pipe music.


*which would be still in the tin.

[willy]

Originally posted by by the sea
5). you are so weak so i feed you tikka and pour a vintage merlot over your breasts and start suckling.



suckling the mmmender?

[mmmender]

i unfortunately haven't had my mmmender suckled in ages!

[willy]

Originally posted by mmmender
i unfortunately haven't had my mmmender suckled in ages!

Steady! You are misleading the witness! (next Friday ok?)

[someotherian]

Originally posted by mmmender
i unfortunately haven't had my mmmender suckled in ages!
you could try Dr.Brown of the NIS (Newbury Institute of Suckling).
i hear he offers treatment at very competitive prices. well.. free actually :)

[Brewstone]

I can't help but think how co-incidental the release dates of the remaster are to Robin Guthrie moving to set up a new studio.

Every penny counts, eh, Robin?

Personally, I think that they (the band) have had enough green-and-folding out of me over the years, without attempting to relieve me of even more.

If 4AD rely on their back-catalogue to generate revenue, then their A&R department should be fired for not doing their jobs properly. Similarly, 4AD's quality control should be fired for allowing a basic typo to slip thru the net. After all, all it takes is for one of the 4AD monkeys to copy from a list - is that beyond the combined mental abilities of the staff?

Excuse me for borrowing a one-time campaign slogan, but "It's the music, stupid." Or more elementally in this case, its the sound.

I'm unfamiliar with this campaign slogan, but to use it as part of an argument in whether we are being fleeced or not is both lame and a little insulting.

[E-Lo]

Does anyone else think this Blood Bath typo mistake was intentional to create a little free PR buzz/instant collectible status?

[Brewstone]

Does anyone else think this Blood Bath typo mistake was intentional to create a little free PR buzz/instant collectible status?

Yes...probably thought up by the geniuses in 4AD's A&R group.

They sure as shit weren't out talent scouting that day.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by Brewstone
I can't help but think how co-incidental the release dates of the remaster are to Robin Guthrie moving to set up a new studio.
in all fairness to robin, he moved to france and set up a studio in july, these remasters were released in february - that's a 7 month time difference.

Originally posted by Brewstone
If 4AD rely on their back-catalogue to generate revenue, then their A&R department should be fired for not doing their jobs properly. Similarly, 4AD's quality control should be fired for allowing a basic typo to slip thru the net. After all, all it takes is for one of the 4AD monkeys to copy from a list - is that beyond the combined mental abilities of the staff?

agreed 100%....but i'm curious as to why no one said a damn thing about typos when garlands was initially released on vinyl with a misprint?!

[Brewstone]

agreed 100%....but i'm curious as to why no one said a damn thing about typos when garlands was initially released on vinyl with a misprint?!

Leesa

With all due respect, how would most folks know what the titles of a new band's first album should or should not be?

[mmmender]

Originally posted by Brewstone
With all due respect, how would most folks know what the titles of a new band's first album should or should not be?


simple.

by looking at the sleeve then looking at the disc label and noticing that one says "Shallow Then Hallo" and the other says "Shallow Then Halo"

[Brewstone]

by looking at the sleeve then looking at the disc label and noticing that one says "Shallow Then Hallo" and the other says "Shallow Then Halo"

And how often does anyone do that? The only time I glance at the label of a vinyl album is to see whether I'm about to play side one or side two.

The 4AD simians strike again.

[mmmender]

well i'd say my answer is "often"

as a collector i inspect every single detail, and i'm sure i'm not alone here. there have been other cocteau freak sightings. :rolleyes:

and what about all the other misprints? "Frazer" c'mon! yet no-one complains. you think liz was pleased that her own label got her name wrong? or do you think she overlooked it and considered it 'petty'?

fyi..........
http://www.cocteautwins.org/~leesa/cocteautwins/cgraphix/garlands_mis.jpg

[someotherian]

my guess is that in cases like the original garlands vinyl misprint, nothing was said (by those who did notice) because there was only one version of that release.

now with these remasters, people who will quite likely already have copies of the cds are being 'invited' to buy pretty much the same things again, and maybe see things like misprints as the last straw in their general unhappiness and scepticism about the new versions.

i suspect that if the last, unfinished album had been finished and released, but with a misprint/defect, there would have been less debate about it.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by someotherian
my guess is that in cases like the original garlands vinyl misprint, nothing was said (by those who did notice) because there was only one version of that release.


untrue i'm afraid.

[Colin]

an argument in whether we are being fleeced or not

(Not sure I used the quote option right: the above is from Brewstone's note, to which I respond):


You're not being fleeced if no one is forcing you to buy the disc. They're there if you want them, and they are advertised as being remasters -- i.e., improved sound. The sound is improved. But prior to my post, almost no one was talking about the sound. That's all I was saying. Simple "argument." But I understand others' points.

The campaign quote I mentioned is "it's the economy, stupid" -- a Clinton-era, joking-reminder to your friends to stay focused on what counts. I mistakenly thought it was widely recognized, and have appologized for those who thought I was seriously calling people names. I see lots of joking-around and teasing on the site, and made a poor attempt to sprinkle some humor in my note. So sorry.

[someotherian]

Originally posted by mmmender


untrue i'm afraid.
leesa i'm not sure which bit of what i said you are talking about, but if it's about other releases.. i see now that the garlands vinyl was re-issued, my mistake.. sorry.

ok here's a question for you (or anyone): did all releases of garlands on vinyl (original and re-issued, from all the various countries) have that misprint? i'm just curious..

[mojo]

the remasters were done at the same time as Stars and Topsoil - the main reason they exist, is that in the US all the albums revert back to 4ad this year. To bring the world in line and releasing the same versions, these now exist. I'm not sure what the promotion will be in the US (its still a short way off yet though) but I would think it'll be a bigger deal there, than here, where the albums have always been via 4ad.

as far as 4ad's catalogue selling - it relies on the entire catalogue to sell to keep it going as a label - any label that disagrees with that doesn't stand a chance. However, there's still a few albums which have the CAD (full price) prefix, which should be moved to GAD (mid price). That's all that happened with these albums. The Pixies catalogue reverts back to 4ad in the USA later this year, the same thing will happen again - its currently being worked on. While current catalogue includes new releases by Throwing Muses, Kristin Hersh, Vinny Miller, two albums by Lisa Gerrard, Mojave 3, Rachel Goswell, the Dead Can Dance double cd, etc etc etc. So its pretty busy. There's also rumours of a new Breeders single sometime this year.

the point of these releases in the UK was not to put any kind of marketing budget behind it, just to get stores stocking the albums again, getting whatever racking can be got instores, but not ending up spending a ton of money getting it. That tends to be the way with 4ad/Beggars Group backcat for any release - from Gary Numan to Cornershop.

nobody has been invited to buy them - from what I can see its not an agressive campaign (hell, we want stores to be stocking these albums for another 10 years and not just returning them all when they've been made to take thousands of each). These albums are going to appeal to anyone who didn't get them on cd the first time around, and who might think about doing something to replace their vinyl now. That's all. I've gone out of my way to make sure people who automatically get 4ad releases from me know what they're getting. I don't want people to feel conned by it - I'd rather they just enjoyed it.

re the typos, they happen. I wish they had been some kind of ploy to get people to buy the albums, it'd have made it a bit more interesting than it is (nb that was a joke). Mistakes will happen. Hell, the person who made the initial mistake has been known to spell his own name wrong... anyway, I'm doing my bit to help out now and spellchecking a lot more (I didn't get to see these albums prior to production, else I might have noticed) and helping backcat, so hopefully things like this wont happen again.

anyway, just wanted to add, I got a few orders today, a couple of names I recognised from here, and they've all been despatched... fingers crossed you should get them within a week...

jo

ps oops, meant to add another bit - someone mentioned about NME not saying anything about the reissues. You'd never get NME talking about anything decent these days. The only bands they seem to bother with that are Beggars Group ones are Badly Drawn Boy, The White Stripes and Electric Six... hell, they've not even mentioned Throwing Muses have made a new album (which doesn't surprise me really). Now if Melody Maker still existed.... (reminisces back to 1983 when I got my first copy of MM and it had Liz Fraser on the cover... ) I wish mags like that still existed, but sadly, they don't. I would think somewhere like Mojo or Uncut should review the albums though? fingers crossed... and Record Collector. Trying to think of mags that will feature reissues... also, Careless Talk Costs Lives, I'd think.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by someotherian
ok here's a question for you (or anyone): did all releases of garlands on vinyl (original and re-issued, from all the various countries) have that misprint? i'm just curious..

YEP!

[Brewstone]

The campaign quote I mentioned is "it's the economy, stupid" -- a Clinton-era, joking-reminder to your friends to stay focused on what counts. I mistakenly thought it was widely recognized, and have appologized for those who thought I was seriously calling people names. I see lots of joking-around and teasing on the site, and made a poor attempt to sprinkle some humor in my note. So sorry.

Colin

Not everyone here is American.

[mmmender]

i am not american but i, along with most upright-walking, advanced homo sapiens, know who bill clinton is.

[Colin]

Originally posted by Brewstone
Not everyone here is American.

Yeah, I get it.

Mojo -- thanks for all the inside details. Interesting.

I've noticed that when US releases lag behind UK, they often put on extra rare tracks, mixes, or what not. This is happening with the EBTG collection, for example. Do you have any info on such from Capitol?? Wishful thinking, I'm sure.

[Brewstone]

i am not american but i, along with most upright-walking, advanced homo sapiens, know who bill clinton is.

Yes, I know who Bill Clinton is (my family have been walking upright for at least two generations now), but the phrase "it's the music, stupid" was unfamiliar to me.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Colin
Do you have any info on such from Capitol?? Wishful thinking, I'm sure.

it wont be released by Capitol - that's the point - the rights go back to 4ad in the US - so all Cocteaus releases from whichever date they can start selling them will be handled from the Beggars Group NY offices.

they'll stay exactly the same, so eventually it'll be the same for every country in the world, give or take the odd "made in (put your country here)" here and there!

[Colin]

I see. Thanks for the details, Mojo.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by mojo
they'll stay exactly the same, so eventually it'll be the same for every country in the world, give or take the odd "made in (put your country here)" here and there!

do you have any idea how many more copies that means i have to buy? i used the words 'have to' in the cocteau freak sense of course.

;)

[ScottL]

Originally posted by mojo
anyway, just wanted to add, I got a few orders today, a couple of names I recognised from here, and they've all been despatched... fingers crossed you should get them within a week...


Woohoo...that was FAST...shipping from GB to USA is quite expedient...got them today...and very very happy with the sound...on all 4 albums...oh man if only RG could give us remasters of the EP's...Aikea Guinea and LET...that'd be killer..

[mmmender]

Originally posted by mojo
the remasters were done at the same time as Stars and Topsoil

jo, i'm told that this is not true. the remasters were done last june and NOT at the same time as stars & topsoil. this is straight from the horse's mouth btw.

[mattadore]

Still don't own this... is it worth it for the nifty cover art and improved sound quality?

[E-Lo]

Me neither, I usually don't buy new CT unless there are unreleased songs, but I did happen to hear "Sugar Hiccup" from Stars and Topsoil a while ago and was impressed with the quality. It sounded much louder and the stereo imaging was definitely improved. I've been just too much of a cheapskate to buy it so far! :cool: