about /seekers who are lovers

[fraserfaye]

[Seekers who are lovers]
(70%)

Breeze by gracefully
A/Your love as big as a risk fills you up
And I get with one(And the book will burn)

The breath of God in my mouth
A love you can taste
Like a kiss of paste(that kissing paste)(God get some paste)
He and I,breath to breath

Clove of saliva
Heated through your love(own)
I can't stop
Hungry for the next(mess)

I forgot the use
My head fell off and the sky crashed into my palms
Jesus, God, Valentine

Love
haunting of it(on the tip of it)
The old rivers rhyme of other sweet scents(They open us like a mother-sweet sex)(He looked nervous, like I wanted sweet sex.)
Some seek
You are a woman just as you are a man

Creeping hungers
is a magic lovelight/limelight
Like a flight,clotted peak(clouded me)

I was choking on the blood
Which(It) camouflaged a flock/lack of soul
Whose mister fire muse of soul(Boost messy frames of soul)

Kneeling by the hearth(pond)
Which is frozen away(anyway)
His poor essence remained true(under the truth)

Mud and heart polish itself
I slip/stick my heels and slug you in
So send Lucifer into Hell

Love
On the tip of it
You open us like a woman split sex(He looked nervous, like I wanted sweet sex.)
Some seek(see)
You are a woman just as you are a man...
(repeat...)



_____________

What do you think of it? Is it correct? and about this:

Some seek / or / some see?

thank u.


http://www.elizabethfraser.com/downloads/cocteau/M&K/CT_Seekers.mp3

[Brewstone]

Fraserfaye

Who cares if it's right or wrong? Whatever you want to hear is correct, a bit like some old edition of Star Trek (you remember the one with the salt-sucking monster that appeared to be a different woman to each member of the crew? "For God's sake, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a salt-lick").

Thanks for taking the time to post that.

[mmmender]

in my opinion it's way off.....again, this is only my opinion. what's important to remember is that these are interpretations, and i've enjoyed reading your interpretation, no matter how right or wrong it is. only liz knows the real words.

off the top of my head.......i think "clove of saliva" is "close saliva" as it just seems to make a bit more sense.

[Hitherto]

I don't really care for lyrics, I just enjoy mumbling along (as long as no one else is listening).

[badjumper]

'mmmummmble jummble bummmble ooh ahh
laaa le laaa sausages
hairy banana manana Mr llama'

did you get that CT classic?

[badjumper]

Sorry guys, that last post looks really disrespectful on reflection.

Shame on me, Bad Badjumper

I love it. I don't understand a blessed word, but I love it.

[lake]

Originally posted by Hitherto
I don't really care for lyrics, I just enjoy mumbling along (as long as no one else is listening).

I couldnt agree more!

Its a personal experience when listening to the cocteaus, as it takes hold of your very body & soul. Words don't matter, the only thing of importance is your experience.

On saying that, do try your mumbling along in the presence of a loved one, its very endearing i have found.

[Hitherto]

Originally posted by leasa
On saying that, do try your mumbling along in the presence of a loved one, its very endearing i have found.

Yes, but isn't this the point at which your parents disown you?

[zed]

..........besides being a sublime song, singing it to yourself is generally when your loved ones take you to a "special place."
so, all you out there in cocteau-land. BE CAREFULL!!

i'm still on a weekend pass.............. ;)


Z.ballerina

[Hitherto]

Hey zed, I recognize that signature quote!
She is a brilliant writer, if only I could get her to believe me.

[zed]

hitherto.........you know we are working on a big illustrated volume of her work? out this year. soon hopefully!!

well.........if you didn't, guess you do now!;)

Z.:cool:

[ScottL]

I agree with mmmender, I hear something different but like to see what people hear themselves...and I ride both tracks as for lyrics or no...I always enjoy thinking about words...but even in a song where I do(eg. Theft and Wandering around Lost), it still melts away when engulfed in the experience of listening to the music and her singing. Words are what they are, but never a distraction from the sonic experience itself...just another facet....like after the instrumental break in I Wear Your Ring I fit these words to it, which I quite enjoy regardless what she sings:
Beautiful heads are snowin'
ice on wings of love
once sounds engulf the snow
and then I'm alone.


Thanks for sharing fraserfaye(hope you don't mind me tacking on my own lyrical interpretations..just came to mind...)

[Maria Jose]

It ' d be great to have those new re-mastered CDs with parental / advisory
whatever stickers :D

[mborum]

Not that she cares at all, but perhaps one day, if we're lucky, Liz will get sick of us speculating about it and just give the words to us so we'll all shut up. Imagine the disappointment and anticlimax of that! :-)

Anyway, how does "clove" not make sense? One of the definitions of "clove," as defined in the OED, is a piece of something, broken off.

I love that this song seems to really capture peoples' imaginations. It's such a good one!

Michael

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
Anyway, how does "clove" not make sense? One of the definitions of "clove," as defined in the OED, is a piece of something, broken off.

The grammatical solution to this is that saliva is a non-countable noun; i.e, it is not some thing that can be cleft/cleaved/cloven into pieces. It is rather some stuff that would have to be measured. For our non-grammarians, saliva is fluid by nature; so, until our language allows us to slice water, dice tears, and mince lemonade, we should probably not attempt to cleave saliva.

One of the beauties of art, however, is that we can examine faces in two dimensions, divide half- into quarter-tones (a feat, indeed, for us Westerners), and dance on moonbeams. What, then, is there to stop us from cleaving saliva as it trickles through teeth and tongue...?

[mborum]

Originally posted by kookaburra
One of the beauties of art, however, is that we can examine faces in two dimensions, divide half- into quarter-tones (a feat, indeed, for us Westerners), and dance on moonbeams. What, then, is there to stop us from cleaving saliva as it trickles through teeth and tongue...?

My point, exactly. Poetry--and, therefore, lyrics as well--are never confined to things literal. The idea is that an observation of something is being made, and that an interpretation of the image is being written down. To me, we have here the mess from a sloppy passionate kiss being eroticised as a clove of hot saliva, broken off, and given like an offering of which the recipient must have more ("I can't stop hungering for the mess.")

That's one of the things I always loved most about Liz's lyrics (those that we can confirm, anyway)--the fact that she can be so very poetic and heavily symbolic. Like some of those lyrics from Garlands, for example, which I think are just brilliant.

Has anyone ever read Stéphane Mallarmé? He's a French poet of the Symbolist movement, and his work is pretty stunning. Often impossible to penetrate (because every word is a symbol for something else) but no less gorgeous to behold. Not unlike a certain singer's lyrics, I would guess.

To take this thread further into digression, here's an excerpt from one of my favorites of his sonnets (translated):

The lively, lovely and virginal today
will its drunken wings tear for us with a blow
this lake hard and forgotten, haunted below
the frost by the clear glacier of flights not made?

A swan of past times remembers he's the one
magnificent but striving without hope
for not having sung a land where he could stop
when the ennui of sterile winter has shone.

All his neck will shake off his white death by space
inflicted on the bird for whom it is not,
but never the horror of clay where his feathers are
caught.

Phantom whose pure white dooms it to this place,
swathed in futile exile with a chill,
dream of contumely, the Swan is still.

***

Michael

P.S. - Speaking of chat room digression, has anyone heard about this amazing installation at the Whitney Museum of American Art in NYC called "Listening Post"? The artists, using a search bot and database filters, take millions of lines of text from chat rooms and message boards in real time, and sort and filter them into a multimedia presentation that illustrates what people are discussing on the Internet. It's set to an amazing soundtrack, as well. http://www.whitney.org.

[Maria Jose]

Oh , poetry divine .
Thanks for sharing Mallarme !
Will check the Whitney website . Great idea .

[mborum]

More Mallarmé...

I just realized how really relevant this is to the Cocteaus (or, at least, to Liz as we understand her). This is from a bio I have of Mallarmé:

"The poet was more concerned with the music of words, their sounds and vague associations, than with their conventional meanings; one of the elements in his credo was that suggestion and evocation are of greater significance than statement. His syntax is fractious, his meaning frequently enigmatic..."

And the translator of the edition I have happens also to be a Rilke scholar.

Go figure. :-)

Michael

[Maria Jose]

Originally posted by mborum
[B]More Mallarm...
And the translator of the edition I have happens also to be a Rilke scholar.


Well , of course .
There is a website devoted to Rilke somewhere with sections on people influenced by the poet . There you ' ll find Jeff Buckley .
For Mallarme ' s poetry in the original French , go to
http://cage.rug.ac.be/~dc/Literature/Mallarme/
"L'apres-midi d'un faune" is always hanging in front of me at my desk . . .

"Couple,adieu;je vais voir l'ombre que tu devins"
ballerina

[kookaburra]

We do all realize that there is a world of difference between poetry and song lyrics, don't we?

[mattadore]

Well, with all due respect to your assertion, which I think is pretty accurate, I think there are rare musicians whose lyrics are poetry...

[watchlar]

Originally posted by mattyboyo1
Well, with all due respect to your assertion, which I think is pretty accurate, I think there are rare musicians whose lyrics are poetry...

you know...seekers is a great track...but something about the falsetto backing vocals on the chorus...always remind me of the opening for the 60's Star Trek series...LOL

[mattadore]

LOL

Yeah, Liz's vibrato sometimes is a bit like a theremin...

[watchlar]

Originally posted by mattyboyo1
LOL

Yeah, Liz's vibrato sometimes is a bit like a theremin...


true dat...WORD

roflmao *crying*

[mborum]

Technically, that isn't true. Lyrics are a subset of poetry, and they are generally synonymous. The only thing that makes them different are the technicalities of form and structure, which in the postmodern era are essentially meaningless. Anything can be considered poetry, and anything can be sung to music, making it a lyric. Poetry can be lyrical, and lyrics can be poetic. It's very much the same thing anymore unless you're splitting hairs.

Michael

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
Technically, that isn't true. Lyrics are a subset of poetry, and they are generally synonymous.

Lyric, not song lyrics, is a style of poetry, indeed.

The only thing that makes them different are the technicalities of form and structure, which in the postmodern era are essentially meaningless. Anything can be considered poetry, and anything can be sung to music, making it a lyric.

This is why there is now such a need for a literaray Renaissance. Post-modern is just another term for our literary slump (OUCH!).

Poetry can be lyrical, and lyrics can be poetic.

The operative word here is poetic, as opposed to poetry, itself. And remember that it is song lyrics--pop/rock song lyrics--that we're discussing (cf. ballads, etc.). Song lyrics can be poetic, Hallmark cards can be poetic, jingles and even prose can be poetic.

It's very much the same thing anymore unless you're splitting hairs.

I love splitting hairs. C'mon, Michael, don't tell me that you don't.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by watchlar


you know...seekers is a great track...but something about the falsetto backing vocals on the chorus...always remind me of the opening for the 60's Star Trek series...LOL

Speaking of song lyrics [!], I recently learned the actual lyrics to the original Star Trek theme. I believe that they were written by Roddenberry, himself.

[mborum]

Originally posted by kookaburra


Lyric, not song lyrics, is a style of poetry, indeed.

This is why there is now such a need for a literaray Renaissance. Post-modern is just another term for our literary slump (OUCH!).

The operative word here is poetic, as opposed to poetry, itself. And remember that it is song lyrics--pop/rock song lyrics--that we're discussing (cf. ballads, etc.). Song lyrics can be poetic, Hallmark cards can be poetic, jingles and even prose can be poetic.

I love splitting hairs. C'mon, Michael, don't tell me that you don't.

Do I? I'm not sure. :)

Seriously, I hear what you're saying, but there's about as much likelihood of a literary renaissance (and don't think I wouldn't love to have one) as there is of the Cocteaux getting back together and making 5 more records. What's done is done, and it really isn't all THAT bad. (Sometimes it helps to break things in order to make them better.)

I believe that, musically, one can look at anything, including (or especially) poetry, and consider it a lyric, and vice versa. Few people even remember what the real difference is anyway, do they?

Anyway, as all this relates to Liz, I think it's practically moot. Her words, or whatever they sometimes are, are difficult to classify at all. I would, however, suggest that what she writes is more poetry than lyrics (and even she has said she doesn't write "proper lyrics," which is pretty true, although I feel like Four-Calenar Café strayed into quite a lot of verse-chorus-verse territory and not always for the better).

Blah blah blah. I'm so glad we're talking about stuff like this, though! Very stimulating!

Michael

P.S. - Leesa: Was "Muscle and Want" originally a "poem" or "lyrics"? I thought it was the former, and then Simon adapted it to music, making it the latter, right? Or no? Discuss...

[mborum]

I always felt that way, too, about "Seekers Who Are Lovers" sounding like it had the Star Trek theme in the background. SO WEIRD! I couldn't shake the image of Uhura and Kirk kissing.

Michael

[watchlar]

Originally posted by mborum
I always felt that way, too, about "Seekers Who Are Lovers" sounding like it had the Star Trek theme in the background. SO WEIRD! I couldn't shake the image of Uhura and Kirk kissing.

Michael


EXACTLY!!!! i'm glad i'm not the only one who hears the star trek connection in that song....

[someotherian]

Originally posted by mborum
P.S. - Leesa: Was "Muscle and Want" originally a "poem" or "lyrics"? I thought it was the former, and then Simon adapted it to music, making it the latter, right? Or no? Discuss...
i hope leesa won't mind me answering this, but i'm here just now and she isn't... ;)
so... you were right, michael. it was definitely a poem originally.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
Seriously, I hear what you're saying, but there's about as much likelihood of a literary renaissance (and don't think I wouldn't love to have one) as there is of the Cocteaux getting back together and making 5 more records.

Just you wait and see!


Blah blah blah. I'm so glad we're talking about stuff like this, though! Very stimulating!

As am I. It's a never-ending debate, no? I always ran into problems with my students during the poetry unit. Many of them insisted on submitting their favorite song lyrics (esp. rap) for their poetry portfolios. I sometimes considered it, but the integrated lessons were a reflection of 1) function- vs content-words and 2) technnical and stylistic literary devices, most of which are generally missing from song lyrics, with the exception of excessive rhyme and alliteration. The latter is one of the biggest distinguishing characteristics, along with natural-sounding speech patterns, which can be beautifully distorted in song lyrics--not so in poetry.

P.S. - Leesa: Was "Muscle and Want" originally a "poem" or "lyrics"? I thought it was the former, and then Simon adapted it to music, making it the latter, right? Or no? Discuss...

I worried, momentarily, about posting these views lest I offend some budding poet/lyricist. I'll save my Richard Strauss/Hermann Hesse reference in case the discussion takes that turn!

[mborum]

Originally posted by kookaburra


As am I. It's a never-ending debate, no? I always ran into problems with my students during the poetry unit. Many of them insisted on submitting their favorite song lyrics (esp. rap) for their poetry portfolios. I sometimes considered it, but the integrated lessons were a reflection of 1) function- vs content-words and 2) technnical and stylistic literary devices, most of which are generally missing from song lyrics, with the exception of excessive rhyme and alliteration. The latter is one of the biggest distinguishing characteristics, along with natural-sounding speech patterns, which can be beautifully distorted in song lyrics--not so in poetry.


Oh, I AGREE full-on with you here. When it comes to teaching high school or snotty, know-it-all college students (you know who you are out there, and many of us have been there ourselves), it's absolutely necessary to handle it that way. Once they understand and appreciate the fundamentals, then you can start entertaining their wish to discuss the deeper aspects of Jewel's poetry/lyrics or whatever. You can't blur lines if you can't draw them in the first place.

Do you teach at a college or university? Just curious.

Michael

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
...then you can start entertaining their wish to discuss the deeper aspects of Jewel's poetry/lyrics or whatever.

No you did not just bring Jewel into this discussion!

Do you teach at a college or university? Just curious.

Belive it or not I dared to teach these things at the high-school level.

[mborum]

Originally posted by kookaburra


No you did not just bring Jewel into this discussion!



Oh, yes I did. :-)


Belive it or not I dared to teach these things at the high-school level.

EXCELLENT! I loved my high school English teachers. They were SO much better than what I had in college. Besides, I feel that 15/16/17 year-olds are easier to get through to on that level. And they're often sober during class, which helps. But I guess that depends on the school district.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
...15/16/17 year-olds are easier to get through to on that level. And they're often sober during class, which helps. But I guess that depends on the school district.

On any given day, I could count on about 5 out of 20 in one of my Latin classes being stoned, 5 or more absent, 3 to 4 considerably late to class, and 1 or 2 half awake. And these kids were considered the cream of the crop!

[mborum]

Originally posted by kookaburra


On any given day, I could count on about 5 out of 20 in one of my Latin classes being stoned, 5 or more absent, 3 to 4 considerably late to class, and 1 or 2 half awake. And these kids were considered the cream of the crop!

I must have had such a sheltered upbringing. Then again, I was in high school in the late 80s.

Are they still bright kids despite the chems? I mean, does it hinder their performance at all? I find that, for me, it sometimes helps to be a little sideways when I'm creating something. Not always, just sometimes.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mborum
Are they still bright kids despite the chems? I mean, does it hinder their performance at all?

I found that these naughty kids were on a serious downward spiral. I'm certain that even some of the successful kids smoke now and then, or drink on weekends. Of the many who were either stoned in school or seriously hung over, very few performed at all--the shame being that I could tell that many of them were otherwise very (potentially) bright. Keep in mind that there were probably many other factors contributing to their poor performance.

Considering the things that are naturally going on in the brain at that age, such over-indulgence cannot be a good thing for their intellectual development--generally speaking. The brain starts to specialize a great deal in the early- to mid-teen years; untraversed neural pathways begin to atrophy in the process (I've heard from 50 to 70 % connections are lost). Of course, this is natural and could truly be helpful if one is enhancing the useful pathways while building a few new ones. Funny that, with this understanding of the brain, curricula are becoming more vague (nearly ridiculously) every year.

Think about the friends/acquantances you have that spend most of their days and nights stoned: which of their neural pathways do you think are being stimulated? Luckily, with a great deal of work and allowable circumstances, such intellectual numbness can be reversed and improved when/if these kids come to their senses.

To answer your questions simply and generally:
Some, but...
Yes, quite a bit.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by mborum
P.S. - Leesa: Was "Muscle and Want" originally a "poem" or "lyrics"? I thought it was the former, and then Simon adapted it to music, making it the latter, right? Or no? Discuss...

michael, "muscle and want" was a poem and it stayed that way....simon didn't change or adapt a single thing. the only change (if we can call it that) was.......i wrote the first line as "maybe i should have acted like a sun, made out of my trouble light....etc" and simon said he sung it as "maybe i should have acted like a son..."

see what i mean? there wasn't any change to speak of and he retained not only the original words but the integrity of my poem, which i greatly appreciated.