Dog help us all

[mmmender]

maybe this topic is a bit too heavy but fuck it....

i often wonder if the cocteaus are a seriously religious bunch....does anyone else ponder such things or is it just me? when you listen to some of their songs one has to wonder if liz is the only one of the trio who is injecting a religious element via her lyrics or do robin and simon feel the same? just about every email that simon ever sent is usually signed "god bless". maybe he just thinks i need help from above or maybe it's just one of those generalized beliefs that most people have - kinda falling in and out of religion on a part-time basis. you know the type...."well i never go to church but when i get married i have to do it in front of a priest". i've always found that most highly intelligent people tend to shy away from organized religion and it's just a bit odd when you find mentions of god all over the damn place. now, i'm not saying that only ignorant people practice faith - so hold yer knickers before you bite. yes, i'm digging an even deeper hole for myself now i can barely see up the hole any more. to me your faith is something highly personal and i find it odd when it's expressed through music - call me crazy but i've never been a fan of religious ballads. i'm certainly not plopping cocteaus music into that category but you have to admit many people class their music as "spiritual" or "other worldly"

does anyone else hear the religious elements or am i just seriously losing my mind here? (ian, can you check me on this, am i losing my fucking mind? - ok i'll stop with the spinal tap humour now!)

mmmender

[zed]

i think maybe the diferance between "religous" and "spiritual" might hold a bit of the answer.
Religious..equals organized sickness around a once "spiritual core. Religious is terrible happenings in confessionals..organized theft..pious smashing of healthy thinking and feeling..etc...while "spiritual" may be better discribed as the feelings of profound love of life and the creative impulses imbued in us all..a "higher" way to be...
maybe...i could be wrong...i'll take my leave now..i've a satellite to catch.....

[zed]

......ok, ok....as far as the cocteaus go, one tends to suspect elizabeth with some type of spiritual leanings.. but really unless asked, i wonder about the others... for all i know, robin worships a frequency none of us can hear.

geez that's scarey.


phone home..........

[Scott]

Dog Speed

[Scott]

But Zed's first post seems well said and sums up my attitude about CT and spiritualilty...as for religion, well no, I never did much care for propoganda, I figured CT didn't either, in some way, even if they didn't word it for themselves as such...
that is the thing about interest in spritually(to me)...forget about this monkey brain we humans have and the language it concocts...sure use it..but don't mistake it for the spirit...the ego may exist but it isnt't the spirit perhaps?
the form and essense of a river is not in the position of every water molecule at a given instant..ah yes...time for some High Monkey Monk

[stephanie]

I'm not "religious," as I have no denomination, but I'm definitely spiritual..like connecting with souls, nature, and the unseen forces all around us.. and like Zed said, Love, is the ultimate of spirit.
:)

[coldplay]

i bet there are a few canines out there that would love to get their paws on some dog speed...

[coldplay]

all i know is that as soon as i hear words like god or jesus etc. in a song (if they are meant seriously), it usually turns me right off the song straight away. truth is i just can't overcome my deep dislike of religion if i can detect even a whiff of it in a song, no matter how good it may be. though experience tells me that the thing about the devil having all the best tunes is spot on!
where that leaves things if any or all of the twins are actually religious is unclear! lol!
(btw leesa.. do you *really* not know if simon, at least, is religious?)

as for you losing your mind, young mmmiss mmmender.. i don't think you are, but i can tell you what the problem is. it's your wife.. it's your fuckin' wife! :-)

[etc,etc,]

Thankfully, many things defy definition. The futility in defining is well documented, words are a shaky analog for experience...Liz's beauty is in her ability to abandon words (for the most part) or intentionally distort their usual meaning/ context and in the process deliver something paradoxically much more meaningful both cerebrally and emotionally, therein lies the rub. Paradox, ambiguity and magic always, all around us, defying definition and pointing towards something much bigger than our fantastic, but limited abilities, can make sense of. "Transcendant experiences..one-ness..something beyond..that's where I have to go.." If that isn't a testament to believing in something bigger/more I don't know what is. Leaving the Dogma of religion behind, a glance at the atom,the solar system, birth and generation,the Hubble Deep Field images, the complexity of chaos etc, etc,...it would seem far more ignorant to not believe in a moving force, creator or YHVH, the ineffable, whatever label you choose...definition will thankfully remain elusive! I'll get off the soapbox know, thanks for putting the topic on the table Leesa.

[dreaming]

Well said etc,etc. But I've got some news for ya. According to string theorists Witten, Greene, Kaku etc. It turns out that the universe is made of music. aka tiny vibrating strings. Now that explains everything. More so than some guy nailed to a pole by a bunch of paranoid pedophiles in the middle of a stinkin desert.

[etc,etc]

It ain't just theory Dreaming, I've heard the news...in fact check out this story at http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1304000/1304666.stm
it's old news really. Vibrations abounding, the music of the spheres...waves and waves and waves......patterns, numbers,golden proportions, string theory, fractals and wave equations...all just a tiny glimpse behind the veil, it defies being defined, how the hell could you define infinity, it beautifully trumps all logic and reason. Mmmmmmender, look what you've started!

[mmmender]

um....i did say it was a bit of a heavy topic!

[The Boy With A Thorn In His Side]

Mmmender,

You have opened a very heavy subject for discussion here and laid it on the table. I am unsure where I stand on this issue but I am glad you've brouoght it forth, I'm sure this topic is more suitable for the forums than continued talk of your knickers.

Wait. Did I say that?

-The Boy With A Thorn In His Side

[spanglemaker]

mmmender....I feel as you do about Liz's singing. I hear little escaped words now and then like "The breath of God in my mouth..Laughing and tears, he fills you up face to face..." i might be misquoting as when I talk to Robin he corrects me...all the time, lol.

And I am spiritual. I am also a recovering catholic but I do believe in God. I pray everyday that sort of thing. As I remember correctly from one of Robin's emails he said "With my heels at luficer sent the devil back into hell." was an actual lyric....as in Wax and Wane I was corrected by Robin it is "the devil bites dirty, we wax and wane." so my guess is that yes, she is quite the believer and quite "connected" but not religious. If that makes sense

Anyway this is out of my league....I just woke up

Shells
xx

[Scott]

I'm still asleep...

anyway, wasn't there an interview where Simon even said something about considering himself spiritual but not necessarily religious in the organized sense?

[laurasilver]

Hello mmmender, all,

The thing about Elizabeth is that she expresses much more by not using English..and what she sings makes perfect sense on an intuitive level. We know what she means, what she feels - without having to refer to or mental dictionary. We just *know*.

So references to god/dog or whatever you want to call it - aren't they just about life and feeling alive at its most intense? Person said about "the breath of god in my mouth" (thank god not dog on that occasion!) - note also
"he and I, breath to breath". Anyone who has ever been in love will feel that.

God, lifeforce, universe, all the same to me.

take care and dog bless,

laurasilver
xxx

[mmmender]

nah...you see to me....this is it....there is nothing else. let's face it - religion was created to help ease people's fears about death. i'm an athiest, i've read the bible, it's a good book....but i hated the ending!

;-)

leesa

[etc etc]

And then there was light!
(I just had to put it back up, it got dropped with transition to new board....hmmmmmm, accident or intentional?)

p.s. got me thinking that the existence of God does not dictate or require the existence of an afterlife or heaven...there very well could be a God spinning an infinitely long dreamsong with variations ad infinitum and our lives may just be a note that only gets a single pluck....

[Lucibelle]

To me, the classification of the Cocteaus as a 'spiritual' band has nothing to do with religion. When people hear music (of any kind, not just the CTs) and it gives them a spiritual experience, aren't they really saying that they are connecting with that music in the deepest sense? To call it spiritual is almost to say that where it takes you is almost beyond words. As far as her lyrics, or at least the ones that can be understood, I personally don't see it as religious, even when she is referring to God. Religious music tends to include words such as sanctify, holy, testify, testimony, praise, worship, and of course Jesus. When I hear the music of the Cocteau Twins, even after all these years, it still takes me to another place! A place that is rarely achieved on my own. To me, that's spiritual. When I hear religious music, it does move me.... right out of the room! Nothing against Christians, but I know Wiccans that live as better 'Christians' than Christians themselves. You're right about one thing, your faith is very personal. Share it if you want, by all means! Just don't get upset when your way doesn't work for someone else, no matter what that way is. And now I'll get off of MY soapbox! :rolleyes: Hey! How 'bout those Republicans?

Don't let your karma run over your dogma!

Luci

[mmmender]

To me, the classification of the Cocteaus as a 'spiritual' band has nothing to do with religion.

yes but by definition 'spiritual' has a religious connotation!!!

spiritual
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Late Latin; Middle French spirituel, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus
Date: 14th century
1 : of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : INCORPOREAL <man's spiritual needs>
2 a : of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b : ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3 : concerned with religious values
4 : related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a : of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b : of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : SPIRITUALISTIC

[Lucibelle]

Yes. I agree with you there. Many a Cocteau Twins fan may describe their music as a religious experience! ;)

Religion- n. fr. L religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice. perh. fr. religare to restrain, tie back. 1.The service and worship of God or the supernatural. 2.A state of religious (a nun in her 20th year of...) 3.a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs and practices. 4.Commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance. 5.Scrupulous conformity (how about THAT one, yeesh!)

Then there's
Religious- adj. fr. L religiosus, 1.relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity <person, attitude> 2.of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or abservances. 3.scrupulously and concientiously faithful

Isn't that weird? Never really looked it up before. Kind of explains why religion sometimes gets a bad rap. So as you said before, it's highly personal. As for me, when it comes to CTs music, or lyrics, I like the definition, "scrupulously and concientiously faithful". After years and years my loyalty to them remains unshaken. As far as Liz (or any of them) being a religious person, I guess only she could really answer that one. But you originally asked if anyone else heard the religious elements or wonders if the Cocteaus are a seriously religious bunch. After seeing both definitions it does make one wonder..... I can only answer for myself. I hear spirituality in their music. I still feel that spiritual and religion are two diferrent things, but then yes, spiritual does have religious connotation.

My head's starting to swim :confused:

[zed]

;)

don't let it bother you, it's only semantics.
the truth of the matter is how you really feel.

stress "really."

[Lucibelle]

Well said, Zed.

[mmmender]

well i'm a heretic afterall

may i burn in hell!

:D

[zed]

MMM.....

there is no hell.

only the absence of heaven.


to afraid of hell, we lose sight of heaven.

"we can be heros"a day at a time.

spiritual?
maybe.
one day we we'll all look up.
down won't matter anymore

well...that's what tell meself.
for now..better that the alternitive.

[zed]

;)

heritics are only people who care to much....

[mmmender]

oooh zed, flattery will get you everywhere!

:p

[zed]

MMM.........

LOL!

;)

[Phil Lawton]

My guess is that the Golden Throated One is a believer, Robin's an agnostic and Simon looks like an atheist.

As a raving atheist myself, I'd agree with many of the previous posts. However, in one of those strange twists of reality and reason, I really love gospel music. I suppose it's all to do with the passion and fervour - "O Happy Day" is a classic. Also, check out U2's "Rattle & Hum" video to hear an American gospel choir doing "Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For". Silver tones that send chills down the spine.

[mmmender]

:bump:

[frarn]

Originally posted by mmmender

i often wonder if the cocteaus are a seriously religious bunch....does anyone else ponder such things or is it just me?

yet to recognise a plagal cadence (the amen one) in a CT track ....

;)

[dprid]

Originally posted by mmmender
i often wonder if the cocteaus are a seriously religious bunch....does anyone else ponder such things or is it just me?

Can't say it's something that had ever occured to me whilst listening.

p.s. nice use of the word 'the' leesa :D

[Rad]

Hey you guys have prolly been asked this a million times but why do registered members appear as 'guests' in some posts?

[Lucibelle]

Originally posted by Rad
Hey you guys have prolly been asked this a million times but why do registered members appear as 'guests' in some posts?

I've never seen this. :confused: It seems you've been having some problems with some sites in general, like not seeing images and all...maybe there's a problem on your computer? Are you running the latest version of your browser? Is it IE? Maybe (let's hope not) you've been hacked? I'd look into this if I were you.

[Rad]

Huh??????? You don't notice? mmmender and zed appear as guests in the beginning of this thread!

[dprid]

Look how old the thread is - it's from the days before the site was fully configured and registration was in force (came in around August 23rd 2002).

[mmmender]

david is correct.

are you sure you're not a mod, david?

[Lucibelle]

Originally posted by Rad
Huh??????? You don't notice? mmmender and zed appear as guests in the beginning of this thread!

My oversight. I had not gone back to the very beginning of this thread. :)

[dprid]

Originally posted by mmmender
are you sure you're not a mod, david?

I was always more a rocker than a mod, but truth be told I was even more a punk :D

[willy]

"Never poke your stick into a hornets nest."

'Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson' by G. I. Gurdjieff

[ScottL]

Originally posted by frarn
yet to recognise a plagal cadence (the amen one) in a CT track ....


hehe, didn't notice this before...yeah they were more the imperfect cadence type...at the moment I really find it hard to remember many CT song endings specifically, except they often just seem to stop...resisting returning to the tonic or something..