Cocteau Synthesizers? If so, where? And on What?

[Avninder]

Ok.... I remember reading a thread that had Robin talking about how he was able to create sounds for some songs. All the parts I thought had to be synths turned out to be processed guitars. I was floored! For example, I was certain the recurrent sound in 'Pitch the Baby' was a synth. Recovering from that, I wonder.... If he did use synths, where are they and in what songs?
thanks,
avi

[Clayton39]

Ok.... I remember reading a thread that had Robin talking about how he was able to create sounds for some songs. All the parts I thought had to be synths turned out to be processed guitars. I was floored! For example, I was certain the recurrent sound in 'Pitch the Baby' was a synth. Recovering from that, I wonder.... If he did use synths, where are they and in what songs?
thanks,
avi

In the thread you were talking about, the I asked him was "I Wear Your Ring"... so he said that he used an old Roland/Yamaha 800... something like that, I cant remember. It should be entitled Questions for Robin... and it was started by me. I cant believe he actually answered.

Its actually really easy to figure out for yourself though. I thought he used all guitars, but he said that he has used synths a few times... so just look for something with an odd attack/release. Something that you dont hear build as a noise... but just a flat noise without too much rise or fall in volume. Guitars are always vibrating... so you can make them out fairly easily by the fluctuations in volume or just a more organic sound. The reason "I Wear Your Ring" was the one I asked about, is because in the beginning it sounds very digital, and there is no attack and release. just a sample being played. So anyways, I hope that helped.

[okthought]

Ok.... I remember reading a thread that had Robin talking about how he was able to create sounds for some songs. All the parts I thought had to be synths turned out to be processed guitars. I was floored! For example, I was certain the recurrent sound in 'Pitch the Baby' was a synth. Recovering from that, I wonder.... If he did use synths, where are they and in what songs?
thanks,
avi

I only know a tiny fraction of the CT corpus, so I have to bow to others' superior knowledge, but here's my penny's worth:

I think you are right; you can hear synthesised sounds. Although CT may never have used purely electronic synthesisers, they nevertheless used a different form of synthesis based on the guitar itself.

CT and TMC are both said to have used the EBow, a hand-held electromagnetic "bow", one of which I just happen to have given my son for Christmas. Googling "cocteau twins ebow" will give you some insights. The Spangle Maker and Why Do You Love Me? are explicitly mentioned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-bow says "The sound of the band the Cocteau Twins was largely derived via the Ebow and a host of effects pedals."

The EBow is neither an electronic synthesiser nor an FX box for processing a guitar's output. If you go to EBow's brochure (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/brochure.htm) (that's the Intro link on www.ebow.com), you will find that it is billed as providing "Direct String Synthesis". In other words, in undisclosed ways, it magnetically drives the string, which retains its physical properties in the context of the instrument, to make novel synthetic sounds.

The player can control the EBow's interaction with a steel-string on any instrument to generate infinitely sustained sound, with or even without the usual attack generated by picking or fingerstyle tapping or hammering on the fretboard.

It is said to be able (though not necessarily in my hands!) to simulate the relatively pure-tone flute or the harmonically-rich violin, cello, woodwind, horn or harmonica. ebow.com has demo MP3s (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/sounds.htm) and the player's guide (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/pg.htm) has MP3s of the lessons provided on audio cassette (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/pgaudio.htm) with the device.

The Record Cuts (http://ebow.com/ebow/record.htm) link from the homepage includes a few MP3 excerpts from other bands' output.

I hope this helps.

[Clayton39]

I only know a tiny fraction of the CT corpus, so I have to bow to others' superior knowledge, but here's my penny's worth:

I think you are right; you can hear synthesised sounds. Although CT may never have used purely electronic synthesisers, they nevertheless used a different form of synthesis based on the guitar itself.

CT and TMC are both said to have used the EBow, a hand-held electromagnetic "bow", one of which I just happen to have given my son for Christmas. Googling "cocteau twins ebow" will give you some insights. The Spangle Maker and Why Do You Love Me? are explicitly mentioned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-bow says "The sound of the band the Cocteau Twins was largely derived via the Ebow and a host of effects pedals."

The EBow is neither an electronic synthesiser nor an FX box for processing a guitar's output. If you go to EBow's brochure (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/brochure.htm) (that's the Intro link on www.ebow.com), you will find that it is billed as providing "Direct String Synthesis". In other words, in undisclosed ways, it magnetically drives the string, which retains its physical properties in the context of the instrument, to make novel synthetic sounds.

The player can control the EBow's interaction with a steel-string on any instrument to generate infinitely sustained sound, with or even without the usual attack generated by picking or fingerstyle tapping or hammering on the fretboard.

It is said to be able (though not necessarily in my hands!) to simulate the relatively pure-tone flute or the harmonically-rich violin, cello, woodwind, horn or harmonica. ebow.com has demo MP3s (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/sounds.htm) and the player's guide (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/pg.htm) has MP3s of the lessons provided on audio cassette (http://www.ebow.com/ebow/pgaudio.htm) with the device.

The Record Cuts (http://ebow.com/ebow/record.htm) link from the homepage includes a few MP3 excerpts from other bands' output.

I hope this helps.

Well, the ebow magnetically vibrates the string... so you would still be able to hear a rise and fall in the mix, unless he sampled and looped it. They do use synths though,... you can hear them pretty plainly in certain songs like I Wear Your Ring. I'd have to listen again, but as a musician constantly using synths and string instruments, you do start to develop an ear for small things like that... as sometimes you just want to be able to replicate it a bit.

I never knew Robin used an E-bow though! Thats a new thing that Ive learned. Thanks for the info... I have one but i dont really like it a whole lot.

[okthought]

...he said that he used an old Roland/Yamaha 800.

Thanks for this, C. So Robin did use a synth too, sometimes.

Its actually really easy to figure out for yourself though. [edit...] so just look for something with an odd attack/release.

I'm not so sure that it's quite so easy to figure. As I said, the EBow can build a note without picking (from the "always vibrating" that you mentioned) and produce infinite (subject to the life of the battery!) and very uniform sustain, which when recorded would sound almost indistinguishable from a synth, except that it has a "more organic sound" because it is (albeit electronically-driven) derived from a real string on a real guitar.

[Clayton39]

Thanks for this, C. So Robin did use a synth too, sometimes.



I'm not so sure that it's quite so easy to figure. As I said, the EBow can build a note without picking (from the "always vibrating" that you mentioned) and produce infinite (subject to the life of the battery!) and very uniform sustain, which when recorded would sound almost indistinguishable from a synth, except that it has a "more organic sound" because it is (albeit electronically-driven) derived from a real string on a real guitar.

Yeah, but the thing is that most likely he would be changing positions with his fretting hand, and that causes an audible dip or slide in the tone. It wouldnt be an instant attack like a synth from that era would be. People could probably get very good at that with an e-bow... but I have a funny feeling Robin wouldnt, as he doesnt seem like a big perfectionist in the technique sense. If you listen to the intro to "I Wear Your Ring", you can just tell its a synth from the instant and abrupt changes... it's just too electronic. noone can do that with a guitar... especially considering the fact that the use of delay an reverb would somewhat slow the transition down because of the audible trails from the delays.

When I think of Robin using an e-bow... I can almost say for certain that it would sound like the drone in the back of 50/50 Clown... and I bet $50 that this is indeed what Robin used, as its a dead on Ebow sound. If Robin is lurking... I'd like him to tell me if my ears are right or not.

[okthought]

When I think of Robin using an e-bow... I can almost say for certain that it would sound like the drone in the back of 50/50 Clown... and I bet $50 that this is indeed what Robin used, as its a dead on Ebow sound. If Robin is lurking... I'd like him to tell me if my ears are right or not.

I'm glad you have both the experience of playing with an Ebow and the knowledge of the corpus, Clay. Sounds like you are re-evaluating what you hear.

[Clayton39]

I'm glad you have both the experience of playing with an Ebow and the knowledge of the corpus, Clay. Sounds like you are re-evaluating what you hear.

Yeah, I'm glad you told me about that ebow, because I had always wondered what it was.

[philipm]

If he did use synths, where are they and in what songs? thanks, avi
There's quite a few 'obvious' ones, such as the Yamaha DX7 bells used on Treasure and tracks such as "Orange Appled", and - although not technically a synth - you can clearly hear Mellotron choirs on Echoes in a Shallow Bay and Tiny Dynamine (as well as Mellotron choirs and strings on "Donimo", I think).

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the opening 'harpsichord' arpeggio from "Blue Bell Knoll" isn't actually a synth at all - it's the Resonant Chord setting from a Lexicon 224/480 reverb, which produces a sequence of tuned 'tinnnggg' noises from any short input, such as a drumbeat or click.

The drums from "Head Over Heels" to "Love's Easy Tears" were provided by an E-mu Drumulator drum machine with the "John Bonham" rock-drumkit sampleset, and (I think) by a Roland R8 drum machine after that.

As well as Robin's e-Bow, I know that Simon Raymonde made use of the "Gizmotron", an appalling little device co-developed by Godley and Creme from 10CC. The Gizmotron was like a mechanical e-Bow, which had little motorised rubber wheels which continuously 'rubbed' the bass strings - you can hear it quite clearly on "A Single Wish" from the first This Mortal Coil album. It sounds like a tiny cello being played by someone under a duvet...

...I've just stopped to read this post back and am genuinely surpised at how much I've managed to bore even myself. Sorry.

Happy New Year,

Philip

[Clayton39]

There's quite a few 'obvious' ones, such as the Yamaha DX7 bells used on Treasure and tracks such as "Orange Appled", and - although not technically a synth - you can clearly hear Mellotron choirs on Echoes in a Shallow Bay and Tiny Dynamine (as well as Mellotron choirs and strings on "Donimo", I think).

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the opening 'harpsichord' arpeggio from "Blue Bell Knoll" isn't actually a synth at all - it's the Resonant Chord setting from a Lexicon 224/480 reverb, which produces a sequence of tuned 'tinnnggg' noises from any short input, such as a drumbeat or click.

The drums from "Head Over Heels" to "Love's Easy Tears" were provided by an E-mu Drumulator drum machine with the "John Bonham" rock-drumkit sampleset, and (I think) by a Roland R8 drum machine after that.

As well as Robin's e-Bow, I know that Simon Raymonde made use of the "Gizmotron", an appalling little device co-developed by Godley and Creme from 10CC. The Gizmotron was like a mechanical e-Bow, which had little motorised rubber wheels which continuously 'rubbed' the bass strings - you can hear it quite clearly on "A Single Wish" from the first This Mortal Coil album. It sounds like a tiny cello being played by someone under a duvet...

...I've just stopped to read this post back and am genuinely surpised at how much I've managed to bore even myself. Sorry.

Happy New Year,

Philip

No Phillip... this is great. Thanks for all this good information. I have read up a lot about the gear from that era, but it was a little before my time, so its more like a myth/legend than a reality to me. I hope you stick around, i think I could learn quite a bit. Happy New Years!

[Fritter]

The EBow is a lovely thing - I think an early appearance might be on the chorus of The Spanglemaker (but then I've never been right about RG's sound-making yet!) Playing it, with no motion whatsover, can be quite a transcendenal experience.

Good work, Philip.

[philipm]

The EBow is a lovely thing - Playing it, with no motion whatsover, can be quite a transcendenal experience.
...ahhh, yes - but if you do move it whilst playing it, it takes on a whole new character...

Here's (http://http://www.paintingbynumbers.com/music/mp3/tycho.mp3) a track ("Tycho") I did about a century ago, which features sliding E-Bow (quietly in the intro, then mainly in the second half). A quite different sound, altogether...

Philip

[ossian]

Isn't there a synth-choir thing on Flagstones?

[Fritter]

It could be the Mellotron Philip referred to, but one of the beauties of CT music is that it's often hard to tell when the hell the sounds (vocals included) come from - like a mirage in a way.

[Ghosty]

...I've just stopped to read this post back and am genuinely surpised at how much I've managed to bore even myself. Sorry.



No I love reading stuff like this...I'm not even a musician and have never heard of the gear you mentioned...but it brings out even more detail out of the music I know so well already. Makes me want to listen to those songs again.

[E-Lo]

one of the beauties of CT music is that it's often hard to tell when the hell the sounds (vocals included) come from - like a mirage in a way.

I agree 100%, Cocteaus are truly mirage-like, even surreal. I absolutely love how Robin makes guitars sound like keys and vice versa, e.g., Heaven or Las Vegas

[rufusmtvern]

CT and TMC are both said to have used the EBow, a hand-held electromagnetic "bow", one of which I just happen to have given my son for Christmas. Googling "cocteau twins ebow" will give you some insights. The Spangle Maker and Why Do You Love Me? are explicitly mentioned. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-bow says "The sound of the band the Cocteau Twins was largely derived via the Ebow and a host of effects pedals."

They definitely use the E-bow on quite a few of their songs (especially the older ones). Musette And Drums and Tinderbox Of A Heart are also two great examples along with the ones mentioned. They both utilize multitracking different E-bow lead guitars. Since the device can only resonate one string at a time, doing this gives a symphonic effect of full chords. Another great example of this is "The Rain" by Tones On Tail towards the end of the song.

There's quite a few 'obvious' ones, such as the Yamaha DX7 bells used on Treasure and tracks such as "Orange Appled", and - although not technically a synth - you can clearly hear Mellotron choirs on Echoes in a Shallow Bay and Tiny Dynamine (as well as Mellotron choirs and strings on "Donimo", I think).

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the opening 'harpsichord' arpeggio from "Blue Bell Knoll" isn't actually a synth at all - it's the Resonant Chord setting from a Lexicon 224/480 reverb, which produces a sequence of tuned 'tinnnggg' noises from any short input, such as a drumbeat or click.

Wow, you know your gear! I always thought that was a Mellotron but wasn't sure. Also I didn't think to realize that was a resonator at the beginning on BBK. Makes perfect sense! Thanx man for your input!