taboo topic du jour

[mmmender]

remasters. let's see what the numbers really say.

[Phil Lawton]

You can guess how I voted, but I may have been swayed by this nugget of advice from mmmender:

overall though i'm definitely not impressed and wouldn't (and won't) recommend that other fans purchase these.

(mops forehead with handkerchief, Satchmo style)

Thank you.

[Colin]

Mmmender:

I know you weren't happy right off, but haven't you softened the dated opinion Phil quotes now that you've had time to enjoy the sound. . .

[ScottL]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
(mops forehead with handkerchief, Satchmo style)

Thank you.

roflmao

I think I'll hide now...

[Adam]

I'm running a local ct website, so i just have to get all of the remasters, wheter i like it or not...

[someotherian]

i honestly can't answer yes to any of the given options.

what i need is 'i might buy one of more of them sometime if the whim takes me'! :)

[mmmender]

phil, i'm not sure if you posted that quote there in the hopes that it would embarrass me in thinking i'd changed my mind?

no, i still haven't changed my view. i wouldn't recommend that you buy these remasters UNLESS you are a collector, that's the only reason i'd say go for it. again, from a completionist point of view i felt i HAD to buy them.....4AD may or may not agree here but that's how i see it. these remasters were aimed at people like me, they know their market. i did admit that the remastered version of HOH is brilliantly done, the rest i could do without quite frankly. i think if you've already got these cd's or records and you've been quite happy with their quality up until this point then there really is no reason to go out and get other versions, is there? also, as i've said before: i think they did a great dis-service to fans/collectors by releasing 2 out of the 4 remasters with bloody misprints.

so, if you're looking to know how i voted? i bought the first 4 remasters and i plan on buying the next 2.

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender
these remasters were aimed at people like me, they know their market.

see, they weren't. Maybe this could be another topic, but how many people do you think there are who collect all Cocteaus releases?

I just don't believe that there's that many people who will go and buy the releases regardless. Lets take an example from what I deal with.

I've been running the 4ad subscription service now for almost four years (indeed, the time I've been working for the Beggars Group) - the service has been running for many years now.

That's a select number of people who collect (and have me send out and charge them) every 4ad release, to have every single catalogue number, because they need anything different to keep their collection complete. They're free at any time to cancel or tell me if they don't want anything, and always do (usually with a bit of prompting!).

These four reissues made up the lowest subscription yet. A lot of people turned these releases down, as they're not bothered about getting them in the short term. Maybe one day, but they've already got their cd versions the first time around. I'd say that's some kind of gauge as to how collectors feel, and I'm guessing its a similar way of thinking to some Cocteaus collectors - you'll get some people who want absolutely everything, and will buy it regardless, but then you will get some people who don't feel like they need everything, so wont buy it, or will in their own time. Then you'll get people who can't be bothered anyway.

I just think, to know the market, you don't rely on a couple of hundred people buying something.

I'll check out who should be releasing the reissues in Japan, and whats happened there - I know we've recently switched licensees there, which might account for why they're not available yet - I'll post here when I can find out more information..

[mmmender]

jo, 4AD did this to make money and for no other reason - it's a business after all, i'm not that blinded. we obvsiously disagree on this point, which is fine.....i certainly respect your informed opinion but i assure you the only people who are buying the remasters are either a) buying them for the first time cos they don't know any better or b) a collector.....i don't think the standard fan is gonna buy these just for the fuck of it.

4AD are the only one's who stand to gain profit from this.

btw, according to robin the remasters were not done at the same time as stars & topsoil.

[randomrob]

if theyve drastically altered the sound quality w/buttloads of reverb and chorus and crap, I'll probably stay away- I thought the original recordings were as perfect as they needed to be

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender
jo, 4AD did this to make money and for no other reason - it's a business after all, i'm not that blinded.

in that respect, yes, 4ad will make money, but its no cash-in (which I know isn't what you said, but its a fine line). I'd think after the costs involved, somewhere down the line money will be made. The interesting place where its going to be a bigger difference is the US though - I don't know what kind of campaign they have planned, we shall see... but its something thats a lot bigger for them than any other territory in the world.

You didn't answer my first question though, which was my point - just how many people do you really think still collect everything?

I honestly don't think that many.

I still feel and stand by these releases existing for people who never bought the cd's but who've not played their vinyl a while now, to buy them on cd for the first time. People like me. So I think we do agree on your a and b points, its what I've been saying all along! They're not going to be big selling items that people rush out to buy, other than a quite small hardcore of fans.

But - every time people I work with hear that "oh these releases only exist so collectors have to buy them again" argument, they roll their eyes, say "but they're NOT!" but what more can be said? Next time you're in London, pop into the Beggars offices, Leesa and come have a chat with backcat....

[mmmender]

Originally posted by mojo
You didn't answer my first question though, which was my point - just how many people do you really think still collect everything?

I honestly don't think that many.

jo, i certainly hope you're not talking this back and forth personally! you know i respect your contributions here, i hope!

to answer your question.......how many? LOTS! otherwise, who the hell else is outbidding me on crazy rare items only sought after by collectors on ebay???????

[Maria Jose]

Originally posted by mojo

I still feel and stand by these releases existing for people who never bought the cd's but who've not played their vinyl a while now, to buy them on cd for the first time. [/B]

That ' s also true . Or first -timers curious about the Cocteaus music , people
who might have heard them in the past , people who owned some,even
interested Massive Attack fans !!!
That ' s why I can ' t understand the low publicity support .
ctblue

[zed]

......RANDOMRob.......as usual, as no crap as possible.
nice.
the only re-master, re-make/re-model, whatever, i'm likely to even contemplate is BBK, because of my personal deep and abideing love for that particular album. just the thought of the fifth color re-printed covers makes my head spin. "why, if it was MY compay," i'd have done all new covers also.....why bother if you don't go all the way? kinda like driving to the movies and staying in the lobby. "yeah, i could hear it fine!! and the poster was cool!!"

it's just me i'm afraid, i've always thought that the WHOLE package is much of the allure and continuing mystique of the cocteau twins music.
but i'm an artist, the OBJECT is important to me, down to the very weight of it in my hand.

ohh! i made a rant!!......Phil....quick, did i do ok??!!!roflmao

zed:cool:

[Maria Jose]

[i]Originally posted by zed
.....why bother if you don't go all the way? kinda like driving to the movies and staying in the lobby. "yeah, i could hear it fine!! and the poster was cool!!"[/B]

Another good point , a bit more of effort would have made
things so different !

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender


jo, i certainly hope you're not talking this back and forth personally! you know i respect your contributions here, i hope!

to answer your question.......how many? LOTS! otherwise, who the hell else is outbidding me on crazy rare items only sought after by collectors on ebay???????

nono! not at all! I just wondered if you'd missed it thats all! I'm honestly interested though... how many would be lots?

ahh don't worry, its just a boring Sunday afternoon and I'm supposed to be checking a website for someone, but I'm suffering a bit of word blindness at the moment - don't want any typos :)

[Brett]

Originally posted by someotherian
i honestly can't answer yes to any of the given options.

what i need is 'i might buy one of more of them sometime if the whim takes me'! :)

Yeah Ian that's exactly how I felt myself. But then I voted for the final choice anyway. Seemed closest.

I did buy all four so far. Two I kept and two I put somebody elses (deserving) way. So I haven't even heard Victorialand yet. Hey did they consider a remastered vinyl that plays at 78? LOL roflmao

[Phil Lawton]

phil, i'm not sure if you posted that quote there in the hopes that it would embarrass me in thinking i'd changed my mind?

Lees

Not at all - I was using you as a weapon in my argument.

You've said, in the posts above, all that I've ever really tried to press home to anyone about my disquiet and distaste for the re-masters project. The completionists will buy all of them (how many copies of EACH have you bought, Lees? Dprid? BTS? Erinn?), the semi-completionists will buy one copy of all of them and the "pickers-and-choosers" will buy at least one, probably two.

Jo - how many will buy the remasters? You know the answer to that already....the living, breathing market research data has been here for you (not you personally....I'm talking 4AD) to see for a LONG time.

[mmmender]

i'll probably end up somewhere in the region of having 3 copies of each version from each the UK, canada and the US for a total of 54 cds

[mmmender]

actually bts, WE'RE BOTH WRONG (sort of)!! roflmao but at least mine was just typed backwards!! 54 should have read 45.

it's actually 15 x3 = 45

UK
treasure x3
victorialand x3
garlandsx3
bbk x3
holv x3
UK = 15

USA
treasure x3
victorialand x3
garlandsx3
bbk x3
holv x3
USA = 15

CANADA
treasure x3
victorialand x3
garlandsx3
bbk x3
holv x3
CAN = 15

[mmmender]

absolutely !!! BRING EM ON!!!!! the more the merrier.
:D

[mmmender]

ooooooh but you've got to get the australian stars & topsoil it has such a lovely yellow disc!!!!!!!! :D

[slipmaskin]

Originally posted by mmmender
actually bts, WE'RE BOTH WRONG (sort of)!! roflmao but at least mine was just typed backwards!! 54 should have read 45.

it's actually 15 x3 = 45

How ever do you manage to finance such rabid collecting ? :eek: Is it your staple ? :confused:

Hejdå,

/Matte

[mmmender]

Originally posted by slipmaskin
How ever do you manage to finance such rabid collecting ? :eek: Is it your staple ?

Hejdå,

/Matte
a sugar daddy! roflmao

[slipmaskin]

Originally posted by mmmender

a sugar daddy! roflmao

Well, that's comforting, non-classified knowledge :rolleyes: And seemingly lucrative to boot ! :D

Hejdå,

/Matte

[mmmender]

i wish i really had a sugar (hiccup) daddy pimp

[JohnnyV]

I'm somewhere between 1 & 5....I picked 5.

First order of business is Guthrie for his recent release, along with some other BellaUnion picks, before I go buying remasters. Been spending some big $$ lately on CD's, so it will be a while...before I revisit this. I'm still waitng on some CD's on order (Snog!!!!).

Plus I got some new CD's for my B'day -- The Cranes, Portishead (I didn't have any yet), etc...which is likely going to make me raid the other releases.

J

[Phil Lawton]

What vexes me somewhat is that, during my protracted protestations about the whole re-masters thing, there were (according to the poll results) six other people who didn't intend to buy any remasters, but remained silent. Why? 'Cos Big-mouth Lawton was doing enough or because you didn't want to upset anyone?

C'mon, folks...last time I checked, open criticism was not punishable by firing-squad.

[Maria Jose]

AAAAhhhhhhh !
What sort of bulletproof jacket was thissssss ?
pimp

[Iwan]

ok, ok.... I voted NOT to buy any remasters. It's not worthy my money, simple as that. I like the originals the way they are. I do not think they are an evil thing though.

The only thing I would change is the volume it was recorded onto CD. The older 4AD cds are all recorded sooo low in volume. I always have to readjust the volume "knob" when playing one of them older ones.

So Phil... nothing to do with your big mouth... I've actually enjoyed some, if not all of your postings, especially the should/woulda thread. What is it with you, shags & bakeries?

[Phil Lawton]

What is it with you, shags & bakeries?

That's for me to know and you to work out...you don't think I actually enjoy writing that stuff, do you?

I am merely a tool of Satan...or Jerry Lewis, if you prefer.

[ScottL]

Originally posted by Iwan
The only thing I would change is the volume it was recorded onto CD. The older 4AD cds are all recorded sooo low in volume. I always have to readjust the volume "knob" when playing one of them older ones.


Yeah that was crazy, and somewhat common in the 80's...I think it is funny the CD's have 6dB of headroom, reminiscent of analog, yet completely misapplied to do so on CD's...

[iceblink555]

Originally posted by mmmender

from a completionist point of view i felt i HAD to buy them.....


What's the difference between a "completionist" and a "completist"? I don't know, but I sure hafta buy these since I'm willing to buy/download all those bootleg "remasters"/remixes out there. Hell, I'm just a junky for remasters, remixes, edits, covers, remakes.... I just gotta have it all! --Alan

[mattadore]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I am merely a tool of Satan...or Jerry Lewis, if you prefer.

If it wasn't for the current political climate in my beloved United States of "W", I'd make a French joke right now. However, I will exercize some self-restarint as I certainly don't want anyone mistaking me for a right wing war mongering "Freedom Fry" consumer. ;)

[Phil Lawton]

Or as someone who can spell.

I will exercize some self-restarint

[mattadore]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Or as someone who can spell.



My grasp of the English language is tenuous at best. roflmao

[Phil Lawton]

My grasp of the English language is tenuous at best

Not as tenuous as your grip on reality, lad.

[mattadore]

Peshaw. Reality is overrated, or maybe, reality is in the eye of the beholder...

The only truth is the Tao Of Phil, which can be co-opted to read as "Combat reality with humor!". ;)

[Phil Lawton]

The only truth is the Tao Of Phil, which can be co-opted to read as "Combat reality with humor!".

...And if you can take this pebble from my hand, Grasshopper, you may leave the temple.

[mattadore]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton


...And if you can take this pebble from my hand, Grasshopper, you may leave the temple.

I thought that I had to walk across the sheet of rice paper without making a sound to be truly enlightened?

My Karma ran over my Dogma...

Whoops, reading verbatim from that 1949 copy of "Make "Em Roar" again....

[Phil Lawton]

You're confusing "rice paper" with "Ry Spaper", the famous blues guitarist.

When you can walk over him without moving his whammy bar, you're at the third level of enlightenment...or, Pittsburgh, whichever comes first.

[Phil Lawton]

Whoops, reading verbatim from that 1949 copy of "Make "Em Roar" again....

An invaluable companion for every fresh-faced, pink-arsed whipper-snapper like yourself

[mattadore]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
An invaluable companion for every fresh-faced, pink-arsed whipper-snapper like yourself.

When they're changing my diapers in the sanitorium 50 years from now they'll wonder what ever happened to that fresh-face and that pink-arse, not to mention the whipper-snapper.

[Phil Lawton]

When they're changing my diapers in the sanitorium 50 years from now they'll wonder what ever happened to that fresh-face and that pink-arse, not to mention the whipper-snapper.

They'll also wonder how they can secretly bury you alive behind E-block without the authorities being alerted.

[mattadore]

I usually find that digging a hole and telling me it's the entryway to a subterranean nightclub that plays nothing but Edith Piaf 24/7 usually does the trick...

[Phil Lawton]

I usually find that digging a hole and telling me it's the entryway to a subterranean nightclub that plays nothing but Edith Piaf 24/7 usually does the trick...

Commonly known as the "Mathau Method".

[mattadore]

Yes, you'll find it on Page 47 of the "Teaching Badgers To Use A Trapeze" Manual...

[Phil Lawton]

And in the foreword of "Celestial Mechanics For the Under-12s".

[mattadore]

Ah yes, metaphysical crib-bound entities are expert navigators of the time-space continuim.

[Phil Lawton]

And simply virtuoso-like when it comes to puking down your back as you're winding them.

[mattadore]

Ah yes, the wormhole-defying-technicolour-yawn. You'll find that on page 82 of the same manual, assuming you're reading the fourth printing.

[Phil Lawton]

Page 79 - I have the abridged version, without the "What to do if your child wins a Nobel prize before puberty" section.

[mattadore]

Doesn't that edition contain the floor plans for St Joseph Of Tallahasee Bassilica and Drive Through Taco Stand?

[Phil Lawton]

Ah, a common misconception, as the Pope once said to Barry Manilow's mother.

The abridged version actually contains the blueprints for the flying machine/hair styler designed by the nuns from the convent of The Little Sisters of St Joseph In The Crimplene.

[mattadore]

Ah yes, I once ordered a copy from a late-night infommercial, but they inexplicably sent me a free set of steak knives instead.

[ArnoldZiffel]

set of steak knives

Second prize in this month's sales contest. Third prize you're fired.

[Fritter]

Second prize in this month's sales contest. Third prize you're fired.

that's a quotation from Daid Mamet's famous Country & Western Musical, "Glengarry Glen Campbell", isn't it?

[elysium]

Does brass ball music mean that it has a horn section and drums?

[Sean_Montgomery]

http://www.alecbaldwin.com/images/glengarry2_ab.jpg

"Put....that coffee...down."

[Fritter]

Alec's about to sing: "By the time I get to Phoenix, I want your dirty fuckin' carcass OUTTA here!"

[dan699]

I don't know how many remasters I have bought now, but it has always been the same thing for me, i.e. where's the difference? I was soooo looking forward to the BBK remaster, and found it to be no different, really, to my '88 CD copy!! Maybe it's the fact that I know all the unmastered CDs through headphones. Where am I going wrong?

[andylama]

Dan,

Phil might suggest that you are the one person to realize that the king is actually naked. (meaning: you realize that there is no real difference, and have the courage to admit it)

However, I would suggest that there are improvements, but the differences are subtle, and probably only noticeable to people who are attuned to the technical attributes of recorded sound.

The most noticeable difference is that the remasters are substantially louder. In the digital realm, there is a very real reason why this is better, but I will only elaborate if you specifically ask me to. I don't want to bore the natives.

To paraphrase something Robin Guthrie once said about the remasters: This is how he had intended for them to sound in the first place.

That's good enough for me. It's a bit like the "director's cut" of a film.