Time Signature Lesson

[Gipson]

My recent silly posts made me start thinking about time signatures again so I thought CT songs could be used as examples to help figure out something.

The main thing bothering me is how to tell between 3/4 and 6/8 so I was wondering if someone experienced in music theory could list which CT songs are in 3/4 and which are in 6/8? I've read about the difference but I never feel confident in being able to distinguish the two, although I would guess most of the non-4/4 songs are in 6/8.

Also, kookaburra mentioned that Athol-Brose is in 2/4 so I was wondering if there are any other CT songs in another time signature.

Thanks for any insight.

[kookaburra]

My 2/4 was only meant as a consideration. The song could be in triple time, but I don't hear true triplets until the vocals come in.

[E-Lo]

The difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is largely academic, but comes down to the tempo or beats per minute.

3/4 is slower, think of a classic waltz, double the tempo/beats per minute and you have 6/8.

[Gipson]

evil time signatures :confused:

[ScottL]

Well it can get confusing, 2/4 with triplets would be counted like 6/8 essentially, the difference is notational
(sorry if the fonts don't line up right)

2/4: 1 & a 2 & a
6/8: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Acc: ^ - - ^ - -

Where as 3/4 tends to be counted with 3 accent points:

1 & 2 & 3 &
^ - ^ - ^ -



In each case you hear a count of 3, in 3/4 it sounds like a half-speed count of 3 relatively. AtholBrose sounds like a fast 6/8 or 2/4 triplets from the opening drum bit to me...you can count 1-2-3 real fast over it 8 times before the vocals start...thus that would be 4 bars...I argued endlessly with my music theory teacher in highschool, I contented that 4/4 triplets is essentially the same as 12/8, aside from notation, I still think so. I agree most non-4/4 sigs CT did were likely 6/8. Fotzepolitic is another example of the top of my head.

[Gipson]

I used to think 3/4 was slower and 6/8 faster also but then I read that the tempo didn't really determine that, it's that 3/4 has three beats per measure while 6/8 has two beats per measure with 3 sub-beats per beat. not sure how reliable the source was but that's what it said.

[mattadore]

It gets worse, with 7/4 and 5/4 time signatures, which were commonly used by artists ranging from Charlie Parker to Led Zeppelin ;)

7/4 is difficult, it's a feel thing, with the pulse feeling like two measures of 4/4 strung together but turning over a beat earlier than you would expect it to... you literally have to count it as 1-2-3-4-5-6-7.

5/4 is *really* tricky, IMHO the easiest way to count it is 1-2-3-1-2-1-2...

Luckily I was in a band with a guy who studied at the New England Conservatory of Music and was kind and patient enough to explain these vagaries to me, I would never have figured it out on my own (and I was the drummer in the band!). :cool:

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Gipson
I used to think 3/4 was slower and 6/8 faster also but then I read that the tempo didn't really determine that, it's that 3/4 has three beats per measure while 6/8 has two beats per measure with 3 sub-beats per beat. not sure how reliable the source was but that's what it said.

Yes, I would steer away from tempo in determining time signatures.

[E-Lo]

Here is a nice resource that should clear things up

Time signature information from Wikipedia (free encyclopedia) (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature)

[ScottL]

Matt, yeah, i enjoy odd tempos alot, I like the 10/8 tempo which I tend to count: 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 3 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 2

Radiohead used that in a song toward the end of Kid A...it was the one that has that basic drumbeat driving all the way through...also see Jethro Tull's 'Living in the Past' for an example of this..


CT never used an odd meter that I have heard also BTW. King Crimson on the other hand tended to get carried away with odd meters...like 15/16 guitar over a 14/16 guitar over whatever Bill Bruford was doing in Discipline...my fav is still the rockin jam part in 13/8 in the song 'Starless', after the long slow build up in 13/4.

I find jaming in a quick 7/8 and 5/8 fun as hell...though the result may not be so interesting musically. Though often what may be fun to play doesn't make a musical masterpiece...for that I like when odd meteres and changes are used in a subtle interesting way

[ScottL]

ELo, thanks for that...that seems to confirm why 6/8 is like 2/4 in triplet count...

[Gipson]

Originally posted by E-Lo
Here is a nice resource that should clear things up

Time signature information from Wikipedia (free encyclopedia) (http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature)

Haha, I just found that page too in a google search!

[etc etc]

It isn't about the tempo...it has more to do with the musical "phrase". True they are related,3/4 & 6/8, but try to think of it as though the musical phrase takes 3 notes to articulate versus six notes to articulate. Sometimes this is more noticeable with repetitive melodies as the 3/4 ones will repeat after 3 notes while the 6/8 ones will do so sometimes after 6 notes...it isn't always this obvious though with more sophisticated writing, but hopefully this gives you an idea....it has more to do with the phrasing...of course three is the underlying beat or feel to both...

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by etc etc
It isn't about the tempo...it has more to do with the musical "phrase".

eggs ackly

[etc etc]

Personally, I think Pink Floyd did a brilliant job with the verse part of 'Money' in making a 7/4 sound so smooth, that baby flows for an odd time signature and then it goes effortlessly into 4/4 and then back into the 7/4 thing....very groovy baby, very groovy!!!!

[kookaburra]

Back to Athol Brose...

Try to hear this in the opening bars if it were in a lazy 2/4 (or 4/4, if you wish):

quarter-quarter/extended eighth-sixteenth-extended eighth-sixteenth

I think that the contrast between this and the clear triplets in the vocals are what makes the song so appealing.

[ScottL]

Originally posted by kookaburra
I think that the contrast between this and the clear triplets in the vocals are what makes the song so appealing.

Yeah, I understand, I definitely think it is a brilliant contrast too, what a great song.

I think the phrasing thing is a good point on time singatures, however sometimes the phrasing extends beyond a bar and the time sig doesn't give much of an indication of that...but in general, yeah, 6/8 vs. 3/4 does have some bearing on the phrasing, in my opnion.

I like the 7/4 riff in money too, it is well disguised. Have you heard some remake thing called "Dub side of the moon"? They were just talking about it on NPR yesterday, on the whole, it was somewhat amusing and the cash register sounds at the beginning are replace by bong sounds..heh.

One last general thought, I often thing the key to time signatures is getting comfortable enough with them that you don't explicitly count it in your head. I could count out odd meters fine early on and sounded reasonably fluid, but it took years to really break free of the explicit counting.

[Gipson]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Back to Athol Brose...

Try to hear this in the opening bars if it were in a lazy 2/4 (or 4/4, if you wish):

quarter-quarter/extended eighth-sixteenth-extended eighth-sixteenth

I think that the contrast between this and the clear triplets in the vocals are what makes the song so appealing.

I hear it :)

Thanks for all the info so far, although I'm still curious if there are any CT songs that would be considered 3/4?

[watchlar]

etc etc...what a brilliant avatar!!!!

[etc etc]

Thanks, yeah, it is a good one isn't it? Maybe that's how the old boy got the 'old timers' disease.... I figured it was time to trade in my old sunflower head avatar.