cocteau twins remasters released in US june 3rd

[mmmender]

just a reminder for people in the US that the cocteau twins remasters (victorialand, garlands, head over heels and treasure) will be coming out on JUNE 3 rd - also available will be the remasters of blue bell knoll and heaven or las vegas!!!!!!

there is no word on a UK release date for bbk and holv yet. but for those of you unaware the first 4 remasters we released in the UK and canada in february.

hmm, i wonder if they'll correct the "blood bath" misprint on the US sleeve of garlands and the "frazer" misprint in head over heels..........but i doubt it.

some useful links:

remastered bbk from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00009ATJD/qid=1054310978/sr=2-3/ref=sr_2_3/104-9978057-3004737) $11.98

remastered holv from amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006L5PM/qid=1054311274/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-9978057-3004737?v=glance&s=music) $11.98

[Phil Lawton]

yeehar

[Adam]

and "Frazer" misprint in Garlands...

[Iwan]

Originally posted by mmmender
hmm, i wonder if they'll correct the "blood bath" misprint on the US sleeve of garlands and the "frazer" misprint in head over heels..........but i doubt it.


Leesa... you know they will correct it because that would mean the die-hards have to buy yet another copy

[Phil Lawton]

Iwan

That's my line...there may be some sort of copyright infringement here....

[Iwan]

Phil.... I did this for you. I just wanted to make sure your voice was heard in case you were unable to reply because of threats.

Remember, the cause is more important than the people voicing it.

[etc etc]

Hey, to be honest I am really looking forward to the remasters of BBK and HOLV...I am especially hoping for richer low end on BBK....of course I love this album, but always felt it played a little towards the bright high end....the low end just needed a good boost and kick in the pants...I will definitely shell out the $$$ for those two...like a lot of stuff from the eighties something was lost on the move from reel to reel to cd format....a lot still is lost even today, but I am looking forward to BBK especially with more muscle in the lows.

[mmmender]

i'm definitely looking forward to the remaster of holv....it's my fave.....and bbk is a brilliant piece of work....i just can't wait to hear a remastered version of ella megalast!

[Colin]

If Mr Guthrie is still visiting the forum:

I'm sure we'd love to have your thoughts on your remaster work. How involved was the process. . . What qualities were you hoping to improve on. . . and how did that vary from one CD to the next?? Satisfied??

If you've looked back through old threads, you have seen the controversy these generated here. What's your take??

[ezzydynamine]

are the US versions being carried by Capitol? or just 4AD?
What I mean is.. are they all the same... could you buy a UK CD and put it with your 5 other US releases?

What are the catalogue numbers

GAD212CD in UK
is it the same in US and Canada?

[seeker]

are there any changes in the previous remasters?
i've heard Victorialand remastered , but felt no differences to original..:rolleyes:

[Colin]

Certainly not Capitol. Mojo @ 4AD has told us the whole purpose of the remasters is that Capitol's US control of the CT catalog has lapsed, so 4AD-US will be distributing the 4AD-back catalog.

Could still be hard to find in some shops come June 3, as many are still well stocked with the Capitol versions. I wonder if they will jump to the new version if they have plenty of Capitol stock on the shelves??

[mmmender]

all the remasters/reissues will have a GAD prefix.....in canada it's been this way for quite a number of years already.

[dynamine]

'i'm soo excited
and i just can't hide it"

this Tuesday............woo-hoo!!!ballerina

[mojo]

Originally posted by Colin
Could still be hard to find in some shops come June 3, as many are still well stocked with the Capitol versions. I wonder if they will jump to the new version if they have plenty of Capitol stock on the shelves??

thats always a problem... I know as far as the UK went in February, we ran stocks right down, so that there wouldn't be too many of the old CAD stock out there, so I'd assume until the old stock runs out in stores, they're unlikely to stock the new ones... there's been a fairly long sell-off period for Capitol though...

the 4ad remastered versions are the ones with a clear tray underneath and the mid-price GAD prefix (CAD is full price).

I've not seen or heard the BBK and HOLV remasters yet (as we've still got a lot of UK stock) but I might try get a few over from the US for anyone who wants to avoid expensive import costs... more when I get a chance..

(and I'll check about the Blood Bath typo as well...)

[Phil Lawton]

Phil.... I did this for you. I just wanted to make sure your voice was heard in case you were unable to reply because of threats.

Iwan

Don't let anyone ever tell you that you're not a good lad.

Thanks.

[robin guthrie]

it's sooooo informative in here...you'd think that someone at 4ad would keep me posted with this stuff..
As far as remastering these albums... I know I'm probably a couple of months late to be part of the debate but I would say the following... The first 4 albums needed mastering for cd - cd manufacture had been done up until then, I believe, from production masters for vinyl and probably different ones at that, which would explain the differences between, say, the uk treasure, the japanese treasure and the US one (trust me, I was able to tell)..It took a long time to do and I was happy to take it on as it was something that the record company would have had someone else do had I not done it. (well I guess I'm a little precious - but then I did it with love :) ) The analog tapes sounded way better than the available commercial cd's (which was a very pleasant surprise) so the process was rewarding as the new cd masters sound as the old ones should have..The following two albums needed remastering less but perhaps in order to have the definitive versions of all the albums available has made it worth doing..
To those people who accuse us, the band, of being cynical, it should be pointed out that these albums are being sold at a discount, thereby greatly reducing or even curtailing the royalties that we receive.. Yes, the winners here folks are 4ad and the retailers... (and you lot of course 'cause now you've got nice shiny new ctcds)
As far as the artwork and fuck-ups like that were concerned they may not have happened had we been sent proofs....
For the record : the artwork, to me, seems cheap and tacky, the onbody artworks are illegible and I'm overall disappointed with the results.. Has anyone asked how Vaughan Oliver felt about the artwork?
On the other hand the results of the remastering I find pleasing and I'm glad that has been done finally...

[Phil Lawton]

Robin

Thanks for being so candid.

I was the main objector to the re-masters (as you've probably found), mainly from the angle of what I saw as a cynical marketing move by 4AD. I still stand by everything I said, based on the information at hand at the time and supplied by 4AD.

However, there is a snippet in your post that goes against this information in one respect and I wonder if you could just clarify something for me; did you approach 4AD (as we were told) or did they approach you?

[Iwan]

Allegedly the artwork was culled from the original prints... does that mean Vaughan already misspelled Blood Bath on Garlands, but somebody was able to catch the misprint??

If I have to replace my Twins CDs at some point... I'll gladly buy the remastered ones ;)

[Colin]

Thanks, Robin, for giving us the your thoughts on the remasters. The difference is significant to my ear (even dramatic in places): crisper, brighter, with each "layer" more distinct. Some layers once lost in a general noise come to life. I am very glad they were offered & enjoy them.

Good to know that it was a rewarding process for you as well!

As none of us have heard the BBK or HOLV remasters yet, what improvements might we anticipate? You indicate the remastering was not as critical to these -- what qualities do you think improved?

And if it's primarily the early era that needed remastering, any chance EPs, etc. will be remastered one day? (Please, please, please. . .)

[andylama]

Ooh, yeah! Remasters of Sigh's Smell, Tiny DynamiNe, and Echoes next!!

(thinking wishfully/wistfully)

Robin, it is oh-so-cool that you take the time to correspond with the admirers of your works. We do appreciate your efforts.

Andy

[robin guthrie]

did you approach 4AD (as we were told) or did they approach you?

they approached me

[Phil Lawton]

they approached me

Is

that

so?

(notice the odd spacing for that Miss Marples effect?)

I see. Thank you, Mr G. - in that case, I retract some of what I said in my weeks long rant and leave the rest, which concerned 4AD, firmly in place.

I'll make no further comment until I can invest some time in the archives here to dig out the pertinent 4AD claim about who approached who. I'd hate to misquote the source.

But thanks - I feel quite vindicated by this.

[ezzydynamine]

so the US remasters are the same as the Canadian which are the same as the UK versions....

so i can buy the HOLV and BBK masters from the US to complete my collection? or what?

[HynekD]

And if it's primarily the early era that needed remastering, any chance EPs, etc. will be remastered one day? (Please, please, please. . .)

Errr Robin, how 'bout a comment on this?

Please. :confused:

[mojo]

Phil

I'm fairly sure I said at the time that Beggars/4ad decided it was about time the Cocteaus albums were due to move down to mid-price (as there's only the Cocteaus, Dead Can Dance and This Mortal Coil which are old 4ad full price titles), so the first point of call once it has been decided is the artists (hence Robin) which might clear that up?

Fairly sure anyway, I'd be interested to read the old thread.

[Phil Lawton]

Well, I've had a dig about and have found some odds and ends.

First off, these howlers - they just don't write them like this any more:

Mojo Nov 14 @ 3:08PM

"I've seen Steve doing what has to be done with the artwork and there's been a lot of hours of care and attention (god, when v23 sourced the original artwork for Head Over Heels, and ages was spent making sure the correct part of the artwork was used for the new version - to the nearest millimetre)"

Take one bath, fill it with blood..........

Mojo Nov 18th @3.21 PM

"The other two albums will not be remastered."

Yeah, so shut the fuck up, Lawton, you cynical swine. They will not be remastered, OK?

Mojo Nov 14 @ 3:08PM (again)

"Yeah, sure, a few hundred people may go and buy it again, but at the same time, would you keep the albums in their old formats, when Robin wanted them remastering and the extras on the first two albums removing before they were put to mid-price?"

"....When Robin wanted them re-mastering..." is the key piece of this, I think you might find.

Robin, yesterday, June 2nd, after I asked who had made the approach to do the remasters:

they [4AD] approached me

This is not to mention an e-mail conversation I had with a 4AD employee, during which the aforesaid employee asked me if I, in 4AD's place, would refuse the chance to remaster the albums if Robin offered the chance. I assumed it was a rhetorical question at the time, but it now looks as if it was advice sought for a piece of future planning.

Jo, if I were you, I'd seriously question the source at 4AD of the press releases you're given to proliferate among the masses. I'm sure that he/she would be horrified if they found that the 4AD were erroneously viewed as misleading the fanbase.

P.S. If the person or persons who thought it a jolly wheeze to send me hate mail and/or virus-laden e-mails, based on the premise that Robin might read my tirade and decide to pull the plug on the remasters, read the above again - VERY carefully - to see who really had their hands on "the plug" and how much of a difference my objections would have made.

[mojo]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
[B]"I've seen Steve doing what has to be done with the artwork and there's been a lot of hours of care and attention (god, when v23 sourced the original artwork for Head Over Heels, and ages was spent making sure the correct part of the artwork was used for the new version - to the nearest millimetre)"

Take one bath, fill it with blood..........

yep, we went through this one at the time. Sadly it happened, but at least now it has been corrected. But - the artwork was sourced from the originals as much as possible. I'm not gonna get on the defensive here, but was there any point in that bit being brought up? we all discussed it on here when the error came to light. I'm not one for blaming whoever was responsible, so I'll just leave it there. Its happened, its been corrected.


"The other two albums will not be remastered."


and then when Robin was asked, whether or not he wanted the final two albums remastering, he said, yes he would like to! When I wrote what I wrote, there were no plans to remaster the albums. This changed. Things do change.


This is not to mention an e-mail conversation I had with a 4AD employee, during which the aforesaid employee asked me if I, in 4AD's place, would refuse the chance to remaster the albums if Robin offered the chance. I assumed it was a rhetorical question at the time, but it now looks as if it was advice sought for a piece of future planning.

Phil, you had the conversation with me! For crying out loud, I do mail order! You really think that someone like me, is going to ask someone like you for advice on future planning? Just a little bit of reality is needed, methinks!

Jo, if I were you, I'd seriously question the source at 4AD of the press releases you're given to proliferate among the masses. I'm sure that he/she would be horrified if they found that the 4AD were erroneously viewed as misleading the fanbase.

I haven't been quoting press releases, christ! Thats funny! I think the day I start quoting press releases is the day I quit! well apart from my new release emails, but that doesn't count. I sit next to Steve in backcat, I ask him what has happened, I got to meet Robin for the first time properly when he came to look at the artwork for the albums, and well, I'm not sure there's a lot else I can say really!

I do have a question to ask you though Phil, and would be interested in how you reply, purely because you have a lot of criticisms about everything, but no positive ideas about how you'd have liked it. So here goes.

Lets say we have a band (loosely based on the Cocteaus, but not directly them as it could be any band to a point). Their catalogue was owned by another label in America, and at some point it was decided that as their original UK label gets the rights back (for America), they need to get those cd's back out into the stores sharpish as there's not a lot of stock out there, the catalogue has been pretty static and needs a good kick start. (there's nothing more annoying than an album out there and lots of... for example Mojave 3's 'Out of Tune' which has been due a US reissue for a long time, but there's a LOT of stock out there)

At the same time, these albums are still full price (this bit is more Cocteaus related) and are overdue a mid-price reissue, but on a worldwide scale. All artwork is changed on the albums as we run out of print, from a CAD (full price) to a GAD (mid price), normally just the catalogue number on the spine. However, some of the albums will need extra work as bonus tracks which were once there have been removed. The original artwork is done in a completely different format to how they're done nowadays.

What would you do?

[Phil Lawton]

Phil, you had the conversation with me! For out loud, I do mail order! You really think that someone like me, is going to ask someone like you for advice on future planning? Just a little bit of reality is needed, methinks

Jo....I was being sarcastic, for Cliff's sake. Does the word "satire" mean nothing to anyone south of Watford? And I know I had the conversation with you - I was trying to be diplomatic. Before you tell me I need to be "real", try re-reading my post with some of those smiley icons sprinkled around.

I haven't been quoting press releases, christ! Thats funny! I think the day I start quoting press releases is the day I quit! well apart from my new release emails, but that doesn't count. I sit next to Steve in backcat, I ask him what has happened, I got to meet Robin for the first time properly when he came to look at the artwork for the albums, and well, I'm not sure there's a lot else I can say really!

So, if you aren't quoting anything official, Jo, how seriously can we take anything you say on here? I'm not knocking you, but I have said on here before (more than once) that I wasn't criticising you, but rather the material that 4AD give you to release. Those occasions gave you the opportunity to say "Wait, this is not being passed to me from 4AD, I'm not in the PR department", but you didn't take them. How, from that, am I supposed to know that you do the mail-order stuff?

The rest of your post is academic, Jo.

You know (and if you don't, I've wasted a hell of a lot of hours trying to explain my point on this forum) that my main gripe with the remasters has ALWAYS been that it smacked of being a marketing ploy to get CT fans to part with yet more money for the same material.

Yes, yes, yes, I know that no-one is "holding a gun to the heads of CT fans" to make them buy the remasters, but I think I've illustrated fairly well (as have the comments of many members here when they've stated quite openly that they'll buy them...twice, in some cases, to make sure they get the cover with the misprint) that the CT compulsion for completionism will ensure that they MUST.

But your hypothetical question deserves a hypothetical answer and here it is:

I'd leave the CT fans' money alone.

I do have a question to ask you though Phil, and would be interested in how you reply, purely because you have a lot of criticisms about everything, but no positive ideas about how you'd have liked it.

By "it", I assume you mean the remasters and you can see my positive idea above.

I do have a lot of criticisms about lots of things, Jo - "everything" is a bit of a sweeping statement. But read posts in here by contributors like Leesa, Zed, Sean Montgomery, Matt and many others and you'll see that I'm not alone in not blindly accepting everything on face value or keeping my mouth shut about things I feel strongly about. The world would be a much more comfortable place for lots of people if no-one questioned anything and followed along every path they were shown, wouldn't it?

[mojo]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
But your hypothetical question deserves a hypothetical answer and here it is:

I'd leave the CT fans' money alone.


okay, so the conclusion here is that the US doesn't get a reissue? So where do US shops buy the albums from if they want to stock them? Because Elektra aint releasing them (they don't have the rights any more).

Maybe shops order in stock from the UK? So thats import prices... so they're already pricing anyone who might want to buy the albums out of the store.

It just wouldn't work. The question wasn't hypothetical though, it was a mixture of whats actually happened in the last few years for the Cocteaus, Pixies, Mojave 3, Gary Numan, Love and Rockets... there's plenty of them.....

[Phil Lawton]

okay, so the conclusion here is that the US doesn't get a reissue? So where do US shops buy the albums from if they want to stock them? Because Elektra aint releasing them (they don't have the rights any more).

Jo

Don't question how I run my hypothetical company. I've built it up from nothing to.....well....nothing, actually, but it's all mine.

You've missed the salient points again:

1) I don't fully accept that the CT albums are not available in shops. I see them in large chains, small independent outlets.....oh....and very cheap at Bella Union. Besides which, how many more of them will your now famous "couple of hundred" CT fans actually buy? Either there's a market for them or there's not. The pitch you're using must be full of holes by now from your constant moving of the goal-posts.

2) This is the big one - I wouldn't re-issue/remaster them, so the US wouldn't be alone in it's starvation of metallic covers. I've met with my hypothetical board of directors and the shareholders and they're backing me to the hilt on this one.

I notice that you still haven't commented on the origin of this discussion - who told you that Robin approached 4AD first?

[mojo]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
[B]1) I don't fully accept that the CT albums are not available in shops. I see them in large chains, small independent outlets.....oh....and very cheap at Bella Union. Besides which, how many more of them will your now famous "couple of hundred" CT fans actually buy? did I say they're not available? I said using your explanation, nobody is supplying them to the US, where 4ad have the rights for the first time. I thought I was fairly clear? Maybe not. Anyway, as I said somewhere, god knows where ages ago, the UK is really just to fill gaps and get stock back out there where it hasn't been before (which has happened). It wasn't a large ship out, and has been fairly low but constant sales. As far as the US goes, its a bigger deal. Its the first time these albums have been available via 4ad in the US.

Either there's a market for them or there's not. The pitch you're using must be full of holes by now from your constant moving of the goal-posts.

if you want to email me my moving of the goalposts, I'd be interested. I think I've remained fairly constant on this, everything I've said was as it happened, what more can I do?

2) This is the big one - I wouldn't re-issue/remaster them, so the US wouldn't be alone in it's starvation of metallic covers. I've met with my hypothetical board of directors and the shareholders and they're backing me to the hilt on this one.

okay, so what would you do to make sure that US stores can order Cocteaus albums? They can't order them from Capitol. Whether or not they have metallic covers or not, you've got to make something available for them, at the US distributors of 4ad, don't you?

I notice that you still haven't commented on the origin of this discussion - who told you that Robin approached 4AD first?

did I say that? I'd need to see the context it was in, cause I'm not sure I did, or if I did I wasn't checking what I'd written. As far as I'm aware its pretty much as I said further back on this thread?

I'm not gonna get a chance to reply back here probably until tomorrow now, as I've got a hectic afternoon (I'm not shirking away, I just have tons to do) but if there's anything, do drop me an email - mailorder@almaroad.co.uk - I'm on lunch now :)

[Colin]

Originally posted by mojo

When I wrote what I wrote, there were no plans to remaster the [last two 4AD] albums. This changed. Things do change.

I guess this gives some hope for those fools here who long to have the early EPs remastered. Let's hope! :clap:

At least, we fools who ain't fond of our cash. ;)

[Phil Lawton]

So long as we don't get abusive, we can carry this on for weeks, doll.

if you want to email me my moving of the goalposts, I'd be interested. I think I've remained fairly constant on this, everything I've said was as it happened, what more can I do?

Jo

On one hand you say that the re-masters need to be in the shops for the punters. One the other hand, you say that you don't expect to shift many of the remasters (this was when I accused 4AD of blatant profiteering in the November thread) because there are "a couple of hundred or so" Cocteau fans. So, I ask again - is there a market or not?

okay, so what would you do to make sure that US stores can order Cocteaus albums? They can't order them from Capitol. Whether or not they have metallic covers or not, you've got to make something available for them, at the US distributors of 4ad, don't you?

If 4AD have the original source material, they can just reprint them, surely? The product fills the demand...simple.

But hey, here's a better idea! Tell Robin that 4AD are going to re-master the albums and give him the choice of doing it or not. This will then get the CDs into the shops for the "couple of hundred" CT fans who already own them, but with the kicker that they'll be new versions with new artwork - an instant success! They're bound to buy them!

Where do Bella Union get them from?

(Re Robin approaching 4AD, rather than 4AD approaching Robin)

did I say that?

Yes, you did. The quote a few posts back was lifted from one of your replies and you said as much again when you mailed me. I did research/clip these quotes directly - I wouldn't do you the indignity of inventing a spurious quote to serve the purposes of my argument.

Enjoy your lunch.

[Colin]

God knows I don't want to get pulled into the fray, but I did resurect this whole debate (really just so we could hear from Robin & hopefully move on). Hope I won't become the target of any venom, as skillyfully spiced with expert wit and irony as it might be.

I completely understand both sides of this. I think Phil is right (and perhaps even sweet) to be worried about fans being taken advantage of. But the effort to parse comments to death to unearth some deeper, ugly truth is painful to have to read. In a capitalist society, there are thousands of people dressing up duds, hoping to part us with our cash for things that will disappoint. Someone needs to look out for us & the effort is appreciated. But its a fact of life, and in this case one needs to accept that many of us are totally pleased with these remasters and would like to see more of the early work polished-up.

I, for one, would have been angry if everyone involved with the early 4AD works knew very well that there were deficiencies in the products (the poor way they were transferred to CD), that there was an opportunity to correct these deficencies, and it was passed on. Many of us would be loading this board with complaints about how lazy/cheap 4AD had been to simply duplicate the existing CDs, flawed as they know these are. (We'd also complain how little they care about CT; we ought to send petitions, etc., etc.)

I get that the later two albums may not need improving, but I'll make an informed decision and buy them or not. (This is part of why I asked Robin for insight on what he was going-for on these two, but he'd probably be wise to stay out of the fray now that this tone has reimmerged.)

So I think its noble to raise questions about these efforts, lest we all be lemmings, and I thank Phil for that. But I also understand that 4AD needs to freshen their product. (The renewed press they got from the remasters must have pulled some new fans to these masterpieces. It is legitimate for 4AD to want to keep these stocked in shops, because as NPrinciple and many other who visit here for album advice have reminded us, there are new fans discovering them all the time. It's not just about us dyed-in-the-wool types.)

I see two points of view, each legitimate in its own way. I think they can be stated, we can consider them, and make our choices. I just hope we can let go of the burning need-to-be-right (its easy to get caught up in that) and move on.

(looking for white dove of peace icon. . .)ballerina

And remember Robin, some of us CT-love-hungry fools want more!!!

[Phil Lawton]

. I just hope we can let go of the burning "I- need-to-be-right"

Colin

Thanks for the support (I think), but I don't have a "need to be right". I have a need to express my concerns and to point out glaring contradictions in public statements from those who seek our custom.

I started this whole thing because I saw it as a marketing ploy. The words of conciliation/correction from those supposedly in the know have been shown to be...how shall I put it.....not exactly in alignment with the true nature of events.

As for 4AD needing to "freshen up their product", it begs the question about why back-catalogues are relied on so heavily (not just at 4AD) instead of A&R teams being utilised/motivated to their optimum capacity.

[dynamine]

just got off the phone w/local retail chain and the lady said they also recv'd U.S. remasters for "Head Over Heels","Treasure",
"Victorialand",and a U.S. version of "Stars and Topsoil".along w/
"Blue Bell Knoll",and "Heaven or Las Vegas".gonna go at lunch
to check out the goods ballerina

i asked about "Garlands",and said that one didn't come in:(

[mojo]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
So, I ask again - is there a market or not?
blimey, you've been busy! I would say there was a market, plus there's plenty of people who are just waiting to discover something like the Cocteaus, then find out they exist many months down the line. At least stock is out there and affordable. I'll come back to this later, its been a while since I've done marketing in any shape or form

If 4AD have the original source material, they can just reprint them, surely? The product fills the demand...simple. they can, however the artwork will still need to be changed to a GAD, as is the norm, even if nothing else changed (that's being hypothetical there)

Yes, you did. The quote a few posts back was lifted from one of your replies

whoa! hang on, I did NOT say that, if that quote is what you're referring to! Look, "....When Robin wanted them re-mastering..." was as vague as I can be. Its not saying Robin insisted on them being remastered, its not saying anyone did anything - fact is, Robin did want them remastering. I'm talking in past tense here! I feel my words are being twisted a bit :)

As for 4AD needing to "freshen up their product", it begs the question about why back-catalogues are relied on so heavily (not just at 4AD) instead of A&R teams being utilised/motivated to their optimum capacity. [/B]
ohh believe me, the 4ad day to day staffers (I'm not gonna go trawl out that long email I did explaining how it works here!) are looking at about five new bands to sign at the moment, and there's a lot of new releases due this year. 4ad's A&R has nothing to do with the backcat releases. Backcat is solely responsible for this.

hope that's made things a bit clearer

I thought of a few more releases which I'd re-bought over the years... mainly because I only had them on cassette and felt like I needed the albums again... as far as market goes (going back to your original question), as I've always said, people like me, who only have the Cocteaus albums on vinyl, are the kind of people I'd expect to buy the cd reissues, as well as a handful of hardcore fans. The rest is just getting stock back out there.

I do remember the original November thread and a lot of people said they couldn't see the 4ad albums in stores, or they only had one album, etc etc etc. I just hope that since February, shops have one copy of all the albums in stock, and their shelf life is extended for a bit longer.

course, the question could be asked what made me feel the need to buy the albums on cassette in the first place... but maybe that's another thread for another place.

[watchlar]

i picked up the bbk and holv remasters today....the blue bell knoll disc reverts to the vinyl design...with the photo and the white band....there is indication on the sleeve under the disc tray remastered by robin guthrie

http://www.cocteautwins.org/~leesa/cocteautwins/cgraphix/discog/bbk_lp.jpg

but

the holv disc has NO indication on the actual disc packaging that it is the remaster...although diehard fans will know from the difference in disc color variation and the catalog number...and the fact that capitol had nothing to do with its release
. There was only a sticker on the outside of the disc shrink wrap indicating it was remastered.

BBK sounds really clean...but i'm worried it's just a placebo effect of some sort! that i want to hear a difference

[watchlar]

oh and the cover art for holv is all blotchy looking if you look real close....ugh

sloppy f@*#* at 4ad

[zed]

......*sigh*

sad, really.:(

watchy, you think it was worth it? or is it strictly a collector thing?

gotta make up my mind about shelling out the bread.

Z. ballerina

[mattadore]

I'm thinking I will head to ye olde Newbury Comics this weekend and bite the bullet...

Some of the remastering on some of the tracks on "Stars And Topsoil" alone made me really sit up and take notice... the power of compulsion compels me... ermmm, or something like that. ;)

[mojo]

Originally posted by watchlar
oh and the cover art for holv is all blotchy looking if you look real close....ugh

any chance of a scan? I checked where the US remasters were sourced from, and it was definitely the originals, so it should be identical - this is annoying, but any scans you can send would be really helpful too!

cheers

jo

[Phil Lawton]

I'm talking in past tense here! I feel my words are being twisted a bit

Jo

Everyone (including you) must be getting bored with this by now, but I'm not twisting your words, doll, honestly.

When we exchanged e-mails about this, you said something like (and I'm quoting as accurately as I can from memory):

"So if Robin came to you and said 'Would you like to remaster the first four albums' would you say 'no'?"

Now I know that you hadn't been told from an official source that he had done this , it's all a little futile to pursue the point, but please rest assured that I didn't attempt to twist your words or assert you'd said something when you hadn't.

The Labour Party has the monopoly on THAT little practice and it's not a club I want to find myself in.

OK?

Let's dance; I'll lead, unless it's the "Funky Chicken", in which case, you're on your own.

[PhillipT]

All of this talk about the remasters has me curious. Typically I prefer the sound of vinyl, but I'm tempted to pick up a few of the remasters to do A-B-A listens between original cd and vinyl, then remaster cd vs original cd, then remaster cd vs vinyl. I think Leesa did something like this when the remasters were first released...

-Phillip

[Phil Lawton]

Philip

The remasters should sound very close to the original vinyl.

For all of the hoo-hah about how much cleaner and crisper CDs are as opposed to vinyl, the audio range is higher/broader on vinyl. CDs are clipped at the top and bottom of the range; the only exception to this is music gleaned from a Super Audio CD (SACD).

The difference between normal CDs and SACDs is startling, with remasters and original vinyl (where the latter is available and when using a good hi-fi set-up) sitting somewhere in the middle. SACDs have a dynamic range of 120dB (I think vinyl clocks in at about 100dB, but don't quote me on that) compared to 96dB on a normal CD.

Hope this helps.

[PhillipT]

For all of the hoo-hah about how much cleaner and crisper CDs are as opposed to vinyl, the audio range is higher/broader on vinyl. CDs are clipped at the top and bottom of the range; the only exception to this is music gleaned from a Super Audio CD (SACD).

Oh, I know! I love my records and certainly listen to more of them than CDs. But I will always choose the better sounding format (at least through my rig) when doing serious listening. Right now my turntable kills my cd player on almost everything that I own on both vinyl and CD.

I have not yet auditioned an SACD but have read lots of good things. Though it's not clear to me whether or not the public is willing to make the move to a new format yet regardless of its quality.

Personally I think I will probably always prefer vinyl.

Regards,

-Phillip

[undertow]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Philip
The difference between normal CDs and SACDs is startling, with remasters and original vinyl (where the latter is available and when using a good hi-fi set-up) sitting somewhere in the middle. SACDs have a dynamic range of 120dB (I think vinyl clocks in at about 100dB, but don't quote me on that) compared to 96dB on a normal CD.



Actually, the dynamic range of vinyl tops out at around 60dB (with most commercial pressings being closer to 50dB) so the CD format is far superior to vinyl in at least that respect.

I for one am very happy to see that 4AD decided to remaster the albums. If I remember correctly, most of the early albums were released on CD around 1985-86 and analog to digital transfer has improved by leaps and bounds since then. Labels often mistakenly used LP master tapes when mastering for CD which is not a good thing since the EQ is incorrect when played on a CD player. I also think huge improvements have been made in CD artwork over the years (although 4AD was always lightyears ahead of the majors when it came to producing good CD artwork). In the end, consumers are getting an improved product for less money... not really sure how that can be viewed as a marketing scam really. A lessor company might simply put a sticker with the new catalog number (and UPC code, and origin of manufacture) over the old one. If a fan views the remasters as a "marketing ploy" then they should be perfectly content with the original CDs, cassettes, or LPs that they already own.

[Phil Lawton]

.Actually, the dynamic range of vinyl tops out at around 60dB (with most commercial pressings being closer to 50dB) so the CD format is far superior to vinyl in at least that respect.

I did say not to quote me.

In the end, consumers are getting an improved product for less money... not really sure how that can be viewed as a marketing scam really.

It can be viewed as a scam if said consumers (and in the case of CT fanatics, the word "if" rarely comes into it) already own one copy of the CDs and have the completionist gland in their brains tweaked by the promise of a different version.

So they're actually getting an improved product for some more money, not less.

Which is my entire point.

[PhillipT]

Undertow,

I certainly don't wan't to get started on the whold analog vs digital (vinyl vs cd) debate. I'm sure most of us already have our minds made up. :D There are many, including myself, who feel that vinyl sounds better.

That being said I am merely curious if the remasters sound better than my vinyl copies. Regardless of the format, I always want to hear that which sounds the best to me on my system.

Cheers,

-Phillip

[undertow]

I did say not to quote me.

Sorry, couldn't help that. :) (Damn, did it again!)


It can be viewed as a scam if said consumers (and in the case of CT fanatics, the word "if" rarely comes into it) already own one copy of the CDs and have the completionist gland in their brains tweaked by the promise of a different version.
So they're actually getting an improved product for some more money, not less.

Sounds like more of a problem of the fan than the record company. I used to be a completionist collector of many bands but I've gotten "better" (a bit).

I take it you're either a 4AD fan or employee?

I'm a fan of their earlier releases. Far from an employee (although I did offer to intern for their LA office when they first opened). I would never claim that they can do no wrong. No one gets that claim from me. Under the same circumstances, I would come to the defense of any record label.

I certainly don't wan't to get started on the whold analog vs digital (vinyl vs cd) debate. I'm sure most of us already have our minds made up. :D There are many, including myself, who feel that vinyl sounds better.

Don't worry, I won't go down that path! My mind hasn't been made up on the subject, but I've certainly heard bad examples of mastering on both the analog and digital side. I've got plenty of records and CDs in my collection so I'm not biggoted either way.

That being said I am merely curious if the remasters sound better than my vinyl copies. Regardless of the format, I always want to hear that which sounds the best to me on my system.

And ultimately, I think that's what it comes down to: what does the end user think sounds best. Format A might have a dozen measurements showing that it's better but if Format B sounds better, it sounds better.

[bLeafminer]

I thought I'd give a few pieces of info about the US remasters of HOLV and BBK which I've just purchased. Artwork: Quite an improvement over the original Capitol versions, the 'white' Blue Bell Knoll cover being SO much more elegant and appropriate for that record. The spines remain the same, sans the capitol info, and I've sort of come to the conclusion that the UK remaster spines of the fisrt four albums do look cheap, so it's better this way I feel. I noticed in an earlier post someone mentioning that HOLV has no indication of remastering, which is incorrect. It's hidden on the inside of the righthand spine. As for the remastering. Side by side comparison of the Capitol and new versions to me sounds noticably better, not just louder but a clearer distinction between dynamic ranges. My theory is that while say, Treasure, may not seem all that improved - BBK and HOLV were originally recorded at such a higher technical standard that the remaster allows for more nuance of the original recording to come through while Treasure may just not have that purity at the source level. Make sense? At any rate, I'm actually more pleased with these two reissues than with a couple of the UK reissues and it's a grand time for us in the US to update those 15 year old dog-eared Capitol originals with a proper and crisp 4AD releases. Plus, I picked em up for $9.95 each brand-spanking new, so don't complain about the investment, these two records are SO deserving of it...

[Phil Lawton]

Undertow

Sounds like more of a problem of the fan than the record company.

A fan problem that the record labels love, I'm sure you'll agree.

I won't respond to you because I'm boring myself stupid (didn't take much) and there's nothing I can add here to the thousands of words I've already written and been "punished" for.

The original thread can be found by doing a seach for threads with the word "February" and then looking for one called something like "Mark Feb 17th in your diary", started by Mmmender.

[someotherian]

off topic...

bLeafminer, why not stop by the newbies forum (for phoebe still a baby) and say hi, if you haven't already (?).
and congrats on your first post!

[bLeafminer]

Ok, so I've introduced myself in the newbie's forum. and I wanted to add that the artwork for HOLV is much cleaner than the old Capitol sleeve which seems like a photograph of the artwork in it's vague fuziness and slightly muted hue. The discs themselves are as someone pointed out much like the originals, only tidier and better inked and thankfully not the uniform on-disc design of the other four. Anyone tell us if the first four records have that disc design on the US releases?

[etc etc]

I will definitely be laying out the cash for BBK & HOLV...I am confident it will be worth it based on all the previous discussions about improved technooogy for transfers...I am positive it will be worth it for me.....

[Phil Lawton]

Ah, Ted, you hopeless old romatic.

[watchlar]

bleaf you are correct re: HOLV...and to hide the "remastered by" there was stupid....

but the cover still looks like shit compared to the original

[andylama]

Originally posted by undertow
...I also think huge improvements have been made in CD artwork over the years...

I regard myself as having a pretty discerning ear, and I have only 2 opinions about this whole issue (sorry for verbosity if it's tiresome):

1. I agree that vinyl often, but not always sounds better than standard CDs, but the only thing I really miss about LPs is the big, beautiful artwork and extensive liner notes afforded by the form factor. From a practical standpoint, I don't care how good vinyl sounds if you have any audible crackling or pops in the music. Pfui!

2. I'm far from being a completist, but I don't mind whatsoever spending a piddling $12 for a reissue of an album I love if it in fact does sound better than the original release and/or has artwork that is nicer or more faithful to the original LP. I spend this money (or not) on a case-by-case basis (e.g. I DID buy the new TREASURE, but I will not bother with the new GARLANDS). I couldn't care less if the record company has some prurient, greedy motive, if I actually want the product. (please, now don't tell me that all proceeds from the reissues goes to funding neo-nazi causes!)

It's about perspective, folks.

or maybe it's really all about context. Remember:

"I rave on about Hitler" --Liz

andy

[bLeafminer]

Watchlar : Now that I'm home and have the two in front of me I feel obliged to temper my enthusiasm about the HOLV artwork. While methinks "like shit" may be a tad harsh, there's certainly no discernable improvement. The reissue emphasizes the purple in the blue, that's about it. Blotchy? They're both kinda blotchy. And you know what, the paper stock the reissue is printed on is flimsy compared to the original. The "remastered" location threw me as well, i felt sorta ripped off without it. but there it is, nearly invisible behind the edge of the jewel case. Gads. (no pun intended) :)

[watchlar]

yes i'm being rather picky about the artwork...and the disc colors ...ugh
:)

but the cd sounds wonderful...that's what is important :)

[Brien]

I am completely deaf in my right ear. So I only hear in mono.
But, I am eagerly awaiting for my remasters of BBK & HOLV.

[willy]

Well I think the remastered Victorialand is the donkey's todger, arse-licking ponce that I am. Brilliant job Guthers :bow: :guitar:

Now has anyone mentioned a remastered Moon And The Melodies? :provoke: :fight:

[Phil Lawton]

Willy!

Where have you been hiding? And how is God's Country?

[willy]

Hi Phil!
I'm fine thanks how are you? I've been keeping my head down low after those 'dictionary definitions' of CT titles wot I did. Always best to use the wife's computer so she gets the blame when the police knock on the door.

What happened to your avatar? It lent so much 'gravitas' to your postings.

[Phil Lawton]

What happened to your avatar? It lent so much 'gravitas' to your postings.

D'you reckon?

I just got sick of seeing my own ugly mug staring back at me every time I logged in and I haven't found an acceptable alternative yet (truth be told, I can't be arsed to look for one, mate).

I've been keeping my head down low after those 'dictionary definitions' of CT titles wot I did.

Daft bastard - we need that sort of input here. Stick around, mate.

[willy]

What with this being a family-friendly forum, didn't get much response did they. I'd hoped at least to have been given a good stiff talking-to. (Goes back to childhood when my nanna ran off with one of my helpers.)

As you recently put it: 'Oh dear.'

[Phil Lawton]

I grinned quietly to myself, mate.

Did you miss the piece of pseudo-psychiatric/agony uncle nonsense I did called "Dr Pip's Open House"? It may appeal to your Geordie sense of humour.

Stay with us, Will.

[mattadore]

As per similar posts I made on the 4AD boards, it may interest y'all to know that all of the misprints that I am aware of that existed on the UK remasters are sorted on the US remasters. On the US "Garlands" Remaster, "Blood Bitch" is listed correctly on JCard inlay (rear cover) and Voice is credited to Liz Fraser on inside sleeve. The inside sleeve of the "Head Over Heels" US remaster reads, "The Cocteau Twins are Elizabeth Fraser and Robin Guthrie". I purchased all 6 US remasters today at the Fresh Pond Newbury Comics location in Cambridge, MA. I'm listening to them in sequential order today as it's a shite day weather-wise. :)

[robin guthrie]

Somethings don't surprise me anymore....
I mean it'd be nice to at least see a copy of the remastered BBK and HOLV before it's released..
mojo, if you read this, walk over to Steve's desk, give him a slap and tell him to send me a proof or a copy of the finished record will you?

[mojo]

Originally posted by robin guthrie
mojo, if you read this, walk over to Steve's desk, give him a slap and tell him to send me a proof or a copy of the finished record will you? [/B]

ello Robin!

we got them in stock yesterday, and Steve has sent out a copy of each to you, should be with you by the end of the week I reckon (but thats relying on the postal system.....)

I slapped him anyway, I think he likes it :)

jo

[robin guthrie]

who do I have to make the cheque payable to?

[mojo]

"jo's pub fund" will do nicely, thankyouverymuch ;)

[mmmender]

Originally posted by robin guthrie
Somethings don't surprise me anymore....
I mean it'd be nice to at least see a copy of the remastered BBK and HOLV before it's released...

i'm sorry but this just speaks volumes to me.

i mean...................c'mon people!!!!!!!

[Colin]

You mean I got my copy before Robin!?! chills. . . .

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender


i'm sorry but this just speaks volumes to me.

i mean...................c'mon people!!!!!!!

in what way? to be fair, it is a US release, and when Steve was out in the NY office for a week, they hadn't had any stock delivered there, so it wasn't possible to bring back or send on copies for the band. (in fact, hopefully Simon and Liz will have had theirs today, if not tomorrow...)

Thankfully as they got stock in their warehouse, they got some over to us via UPS, and the problem has been rectified.

Had there been a UK reissue at this time, (which will happen as and when stocks are lower than they are now) this wouldn't have happened.. as we'd have stock in the UK warehouse.

anyway, Its sorted now, so whats the problem?

also, I'm fairly sure that we only just hit the deadline with these last two remasters, because the annoying thing in the US is that if a release date is set, then there's any delays which result in it changing, Beggars then get fined a LOT of money... which thankfully never happened.

[Colin]

Robin--

Send me yer address & next time a US release comes out first, I'll overnight one to you. Send Simon & Liz's addresses as well.

And if some strange blonde-headed yankee shows up gawking at your doorsteps one day, its just a coincidence. . .

[simon raymonde]

Jeezus. thanks guys.nice to know that the remasters are out to buy already when robin who remastered the buggers has not seen it yet. I can't speak for Liz but i certainly have not received anything either. That is no surprise but i can't believe they didn't send one to YOU RG. that is taking the biscuit as it was you that did the bloody thing.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by mojo

anyway, Its sorted now, so whats the problem?


jo, the point is that before they hit any warehouse, before they hit the UK, before they hit the US, before they hit 4AD mailorder....they should cross the paths of guthrie, raymonde and fraser. that just stands to reason that they should at least see what their newly released, remastered, rectified work looks like before the rest of us do. that's just common sense.

[robin guthrie]

maybe they just figured that we'd heard it before :)

[mmmender]

well i know i have...........but that won't stop me from buying them again in all their yummy flavours!

[Phil Lawton]

jo, the point is that before they hit any warehouse, before they hit the UK, before they hit the US, before they hit 4AD mailorder....they should cross the paths of guthrie, raymonde and fraser. that just stands to reason that they should at least see what their newly released, remastered, rectified work looks like before the rest of us do. that's just common sense.

(wipes away a tear of joy)

Why....I could have written that......(weeps uncontrollably and blows his nose on BTS's feather boa).

You've made me so proud, Leesa.....

[mmmender]

:bow: why thank you philip.

[mojo]

Originally posted by mmmender


jo, the point is that before they hit any warehouse, before they hit the UK, before they hit the US, before they hit 4AD mailorder....they should cross the paths of guthrie, raymonde and fraser. that just stands to reason that they should at least see what their newly released, remastered, rectified work looks like before the rest of us do. that's just common sense.

in an ideal world yes. 4ad Mail Order doesn't have any (yet). In fact theres only the one non-UK sample actually in the UK. (which is in the archive now)

Let me explain it a little clearer how it works in the US - the first place any stock arrived was the distributors warehouse (remember, I did say it was getting incredibly close to the deadline). Therefore all manufactured stock goes to the first place its needed - the place that supplies the stores (because if we miss that release date, then a several thousand dollar fine isn't such a good thing). Then stock is also sent to Beggars to send to the UK office.

Sadly, because the last two ran so late, it meant the UK only got copies after the release date.

Simon, like I said before, yours should be with you any day. They were all posted out on Monday. now we're in that shady area called "relying on the British postal system" - the very one which can take three days to deliver something across London, yet can deliver my dads birthday card in York the following day.

I'm not sure there's a lot more I can say (I'm getting a bit fed up answering for others too.) - I'm sure if anyone has any issues, that Steve will answer them on the 4ad boards (he doesn't tend to come here) - www.beggars.com/forum

[Phil Lawton]

Simon, like I said before, yours should be with you any day. They were all posted out on Monday. now we're in that shady area called "relying on the British postal system" - the very one which can take three days to deliver something across London, yet can deliver my dads birthday card in York the following day.

Jo

Problem solved; I run a courier company and we cover the whole of the UK and Europe.

Send ME the discs, along with the addresses of the band and I'll ensure that they get to the right places.

Tell you what, I'll put the jobs into the system now.....let's start with Liz.

Address?

[Baddy2shoos]

u should be so lucky ;)

[Phil Lawton]

u should be so lucky

Thank you, Kylie Freeman.

[Baddy2shoos]

My pleasure...

[Phil Lawton]

My pleasure...

Beth

Was that a polite response or the start of a whole new thread?

[Baddy2shoos]

it means whatever u want it to mean...;)

[Phil Lawton]

it means whatever u want it to mean...

Take one can of worms. Open and serve....

[Baddy2shoos]

:diva2: :whip: :D

[robin guthrie]

woo hoo...
I got mine...

[Phil Lawton]

I got mine...

Eschewing the rather obvious opportunity to make some sort of cheap, sexual reference here, Robin, is it as you expected, listening to it as a normal Joe Punter?

[robin guthrie]

duh: I heard them when I remastered them dude...:)

[Phil Lawton]

duh: I heard them when I remastered them dude...

Only my doctor and a select few members of the clergy are allowed to call me "dude".

No, I meant in the context of sitting on your Ikea Maelstrom sofa, with the usual cup of Horlicks nestling on your Ikea Smorgasbord coffee-table, listening to said re-masters on the Bang and Olufson lifestyle hi-fi.

[kookaburra]

I am not impressed.

[etc etc]

Kooky,
Maybe you need some Q-Tips or Debrox.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by etc etc
Kooky,
Maybe you need some Q-Tips or Debrox.

What I needed was to adjust some settings on my system.

Now, I am quite positively impressed.

[etc etc]

Kooky,
I'm glad you are enjoying them......I have been completely blown away by the remasters. The boost on the lows and the clarity that is heard at all frequency levels is very impressive. The drum parts and the bass are most improved, but you can also hear everything with better seperation/definition....I am glad you renewed this thread (I have been surprised by the 'underwhelming' response to this gift from Robin/CT's for all of us devotees) ...I gave my old copies of BBK and HOLV to my 76 year old Dad as I have converted him over the last few years..He really loves FCC, I suppose it's in the genes!

[iceblink555]

So, Ted, do you think you have to listen on an expensive stereo system and/or do lots of setting adjustments to notice the difference? As soon as I have the $$$ I'll be buying all six anyway, but just wondering if I'll likely be able to fully appreciate them on my current "stereo" (my pc, which does have pretty good Altec speakers and a big sub-woofer).

BTW, did you make it down to CTfest? Don't recall meeting you and haven't seen any post-fest comments from you.

--Alan

[etc etc]

Alan,
I think they are worth buying without a doubt. My first listen to them was in my car, a Honda, with stock speakers and I noticed the difference in low end presence and clarity right away. I think you will be very happy with them. I just bought BBK and HOLV for now and I am impressed with the improvement...everything in the mix just seems clearer and more vibrant, especially the low end, it's thumping in the mix a big boost and more importantly the low end is TIGHT..you will notice it most on the drum parts, I think your system will definitely do it justice.
Yes, I was at CTFest but only for a couple of hours...my wife and I got there late, 9:30ish after visiting family in the area, and we had to leave before midnight due to plans back in Connecticut the next day...I regret not meeting more people, I said a quick hello to Zed and Mmmmender and then had a pretty lengthy conversation with Simon Alexander which I enjoyed very much..a very interesting man. I spent most of my time at the bar gazing at the tv...I don't drink, odd huh?...plus I get a little uptight in crowds so I clammed up and 'observed' for too long, I can't help it, I'm a voyeur at heart:eek: ! I regret not meeting you, I would have liked to say hello..it went by too fast...maybe we will meet at a VI show? or.......the reunion gig :rolleyes: !

[iceblink555]

Ted, glad to hear you made it to the fest. Maybe I saw you at some point--what were you wearing? Have you spotted yourself in any of the CTfest pic threads?

Yeah, the reunion gig.... wouldn't that be nice :sigh: Or maybe we can meet up if you come to Montreal sometime? I remember you and Zed were threatening to take a trip up here awhile back.

Think you'll make it out to LA next year?

Thanks for the advice re: the remasters. Good to know I won't be buying them just for the new artwork :)

--Alan