View Full Version : anyone else ever heard of "Puirt a beul" before?
fredofla
May-3-11, 11:58 AM
someone posted this comment in You Tube only two months ago:
"The exact meaning of words and the exact way in which words are pronounced do not matter for the Cocteau Twins. Liz follows the Scottish tradition of "Puirt a beul" (mouth music), in which what matters most is the musicality of words when put together. It must be hard for native speakers of English to fully understand that, but for us, foreign speakers of English, it is more than natural not to understand a word or to mispronounce. "Puirt a beul", pure magic!!"
i post this because i'd never heard of "Puirt a beul" until today.
i did a simple search here on The Forums, and couldn't find one thread or post in reference to a discussion of this topic.
i thinks it's rather important (ie., this Scottish tradition) to understanding Elizabeth's lyrical invention with the band, don't you?
....anyone?
preCicely
May-3-11, 12:35 PM
When you Wikipedia it, they even mention Cocteau Twins.... how cool!
Nope, never heard of it before. Mouth music is not uncommon in parts of Britain, in fact there's a Scottish band of that name and I have some of their CDs somewhere I think.
andylama
May-3-11, 1:24 PM
Yes, I know about mouth music. (the cultural tradition AND the band of the same name) IIRC, it's pronounced like "pursed a bail".
It's essentially a capella singing (in Gaelic) with a heavy rhythmic/syncopation element.
I could imagine some innate kinship with Liz Fraser's style, although mouth music (what I've heard of it) tends to be kinda fast-and-furious, which is not exactly Liz's style. Personally, I find it more analogous to Jamaican Dancehall rapping than to Cocteau Twins vocals.
Probably the closest Liz comes to this style would have been during the Tiny Dynamine/Echoes in a Shallow Bay period.
IMO, to get into mouth music, you must have a propensity to really dig Celtic folk music. I appreciate it, but also find it very tiresome in large doses.
The band Mouth Music is a 'World Beat' outfit with a strong Celtic slant, African rhythms and lots of electronics. Great musicianship, interesting textures, and at the same time, 'mall P.A. friendly' (take that however you like).
Their first album (self titled) is fairly folksy, but quite interesting, not stodgy.
Their second (Mo-Di) is a really, really good World Beat record. If you like stuff like Afro Celt Sound System, you'll probably dig this (it's remarkably similar). It may sound a bit dated now, but I'd still recommend it.
After that, the band had a big change in personnel, and things got really cheesy and overly commercial-sounding, so I kinda parted ways with them.
From what I understand, they put out a few more albums, with even more personnel changes, so they may have regained some quality, but I don't know. Maybe I should look into it.
I haven't thought about these guys in ages.
fredofla
May-3-11, 2:38 PM
thanks for the feedback, everyone.
i just wondered.....what on earth is this grand Scottish tradition in words-to-music that no one ever mentions.
i mean, has Elizabeth ever verified this "tradition" as the actual source for her method of lyric writing? when she did CT interviews (and she used to do them, now and then when the band was active) has she ever noted or referred to this thing called "Puirt a beul"?
personally, i always thought the great rumor was that Elizabeth was simply scared to death of forgetting words during performances early on, and then found a way to compose lyrics so that they mattered less in terms of vocal accuracy, and then eventually, meaning.....so that she could get past this personal hurdle.
this makes sense, though, only until you consider that it surely must be harder to memorize nonsense words than words that fit to a song more logically/organically.
certainly she must have been questioned at some point in time about why the lyrics she sung so often seemed to be intentionally obscured and smeared to the point of meaninglessness? especially when, in the later (4CC) music, she began to eventually back away from this approach! no?
for me, the lack of clarity on this issue (ironically) remains the greatest riddle in what still remains of CT lore.
postlibyan
May-3-11, 2:43 PM
this makes sense, though, only until you consider that it surely must be harder to memorize nonsense words than words that fit to a song more logically/organically. actually, according to some anthropologists i have read the opposite is true, which is why humans had a long tradition of oral poetry before written language was ever written.
look at it this way: around the campfire primitive humans recited poems from memory, not novels...
PJK
fredofla
May-3-11, 2:48 PM
actually, according to some anthropologists i have read the opposite is true, which is why humans had a long tradition of oral poetry before written language was ever written.
look at it this way: around the campfire primitive humans recited poems from memory, not novels...
PJK
hmmmmmmmmm. interesting take, PJK.
i don't know if i buy what anthropologists are selling here.
the brain functions associatively when it comes to language memorization....seems to me, there's just no way around that.
davespear
May-3-11, 2:58 PM
wow, what a cool, interesting piece of info there Fred, I'm amazed that unheard of stuff keeps coming through here
I was thinking about this earlier when my little boy was asking for a "stottie baw" (a bouncy ball).
A lot of Scots terms sound unrecognisable to an unaccustomed ear because of their pronunciation (baw) or simply because the word is different to its English equivalent (stottie).
In this year's census there was a question about other languages spoken in the household and Scots was included.
I'm not sure if Elizabeth was consciously drawing on a great Scottish tradition of "mouth music" so much as using language and terms familiar to many Scots. There are arguments among scholars as to whether Scots is a dialect or language, either way I hear a lot of it (and use a bit of it) on a daily basis.
andylama
May-3-11, 3:55 PM
Scots seems more different to English than Afrikaans is to Dutch, and Afrikaans is certainly credited as its own language! I wonder what the generally accepted baseline is.
This is from the Scottish Government website:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2009/01/27102433
andylama
May-3-11, 5:32 PM
Am I correct in assuming that the Scots language you are talking about is completely separate and disctinct from the Scottish Gaelic dialect? or are they sort of mashed together?
I just love the way Gaelic looks when written out. Here's the lyrics from one of Mouth Music's better dancey tunes:
He mandu 's truagh nach digeadh
He mandu siod 'gham iarraidh
He mandu gille 's litir
Hi ri oro each is diollaid
He mandu hi ri oro
ho ro hu o
Nam biodh agam sgiath a ghlaisein
iteag nan eoin spog na lachain
Shnamhainn na caoil air an tarsuinn
an Caol Ileach 's an Caol Arcach
'S rachainn a steach chon a' chaisteal
's bheirinn a mach as mo leannan.
and it sounds nothing like it's spelled! Check it out:
B3nj7TDmiSs
...and here's a really bizarre take on the same song (I just stumbled across this weirdness)
9vYohShHekI
Scots seems more different to English than Afrikaans is to Dutch, and Afrikaans is certainly credited as its own language! I wonder what the generally accepted baseline is.
The Scottish language is Gaelic, but they have their own accented dialect of English full of slang and local colloquialisms just as other regions of Britain do. Put a tourist in a room with strongly accented people from Glasgow, The Shetland Islands, Northern Ireland, Liverpool, Newcastle, Manchester, Wolverhampton, North Wales, South Wales, Somerset, Cornwall, Norfolk and East London and they wouldn't believe that they were all speaking the same language. Bit like comparing North Americans from Boston, New York, California, Canada, Texas & the deep South, except that the global nature of US television actually means those accents are probably better known and understood than many of the UK regional accents. For instance I'm far more likely to hear an American deep south accent on TV or in film than I am someone from the far north of Scotland.
The Scottish government will of course always try to imply that this difference in accent in some way makes them special (and independent) from the rest of Britain. It's their reason for being.
andylama
May-3-11, 5:40 PM
Ah! Fascinating, really! I love this kind of thing.
I really need to digitize those old UK novelty records I told you about. It's hard to believe they're speaking English on those, though I'm sure the dialect is exaggerated for comic effect.
The dutch for bouncing ball is stuiterbal, which is amazingly similar to stottie baw.
I really have difficulty with this initially - it takes time to get the ear tuned in to it:
v37bgydws0E
The dutch for bouncing ball is stuiterbal, which is amazingly similar to stottie baw.
Quite!
fredofla
May-3-11, 7:26 PM
I was thinking about this earlier when my little boy was asking for a "stottie baw" (a bouncy ball).
A lot of Scots terms sound unrecognisable to an unaccustomed ear because of their pronunciation (baw) or simply because the word is different to its English equivalent (stottie).
In this year's census there was a question about other languages spoken in the household and Scots was included.
thanks, Bettina. i think you may be onto something here!
would it be crazy to suggest that "stottie baw" does indeed sound hugely Cocteau Twinsian?
oh, though i've not been to Scotland....i have briefly visited Wales and i was utterly blown away by how the ancient language there is alive and well and still kicking ass (and, geez, it's but a two hour train ride from London but hell ya might as well have gone to France! LOL. actually, visually....the written Welsh language seemed somehow closer to Arabic than anything as modest as French.)
andylama
May-3-11, 7:28 PM
I really have difficulty with this initially - it takes time to get the ear tuned in to it:
v37bgydws0E
Wow. I picked up on "every minute of the day", then beyond that, it sounds mostly foreign to me!
What amazes me is the depth of variation across a relatively small geographic space (referring to the UK). This is different than North America, where variations away from 'neutral American English' is more subtle, and really difficult accents (mostly in the deep south) are pretty isolated to specific cultural enclaves (i.e. Appalachian, Cajun, etc.) I have heard one dialect (can't remember--may have been rural Tennessee?) that was as difficult to me as the broad Shetland from the video, just in a very different way.
It's all 'English' though! Nifty!
fredofla
May-3-11, 7:31 PM
Am I correct in assuming that the Scots language you are talking about is completely separate and disctinct from the Scottish Gaelic dialect? or are they sort of mashed together?
I just love the way Gaelic looks when written out. Here's the lyrics from one of Mouth Music's better dancey tunes:
He mandu 's truagh nach digeadh
He mandu siod 'gham iarraidh
He mandu gille 's litir
Hi ri oro each is diollaid
He mandu hi ri oro
ho ro hu o
Nam biodh agam sgiath a ghlaisein
iteag nan eoin spog na lachain
Shnamhainn na caoil air an tarsuinn
an Caol Ileach 's an Caol Arcach
'S rachainn a steach chon a' chaisteal
's bheirinn a mach as mo leannan.
and it sounds nothing like it's spelled! Check it out:
B3nj7TDmiSs
...and here's a really bizarre take on the same song (I just stumbled across this weirdness)
9vYohShHekI
brilliant examples, Mr. A.
i'd almost forgotten that i do indeed have this too-soon-forgotten band in my CD collection.
these songs hold up rather well, no?
oddly, they make a lot more sense to me now than when i originally bought them. and, of course, what attracted me to them was much the same as Elizabeth's own bit of speaking in CT tongues.
:coffee:
fredofla
May-3-11, 7:40 PM
When you Wikipedia it, they even mention Cocteau Twins.... how cool!
would you mind sharing this link with us?
i'm trying my best to find it.....
:shout:
andylama
May-3-11, 7:40 PM
I still like the Mo-Di album a lot. "Birnam" is one of the most chillingly effective (read: not preachy or sanctimonious) ecology songs I've ever heard. The singer is nothing like Liz, but she's good, and does some very sweet self-harmonies.
fredofla
May-3-11, 7:44 PM
I really have difficulty with this initially - it takes time to get the ear tuned in to it:
v37bgydws0E
so what you are suggesting here, David, is that part of the CT "smearing" technique may have as much to do with Elizabeth's speaking accent. does Elizabeth, in fact, have a rather heavy speaking accent?
andylama
May-4-11, 12:20 AM
Fairly heavy, from what I remember. Not difficult to understand though.
interesting thread ... it got me to thinking about regional dialects, especially Yorkshire Dales dialect and on searching for some examples came across this "interview" with a child which is quite astonishing for its "broadness" of accent ... I believe she may be from the Sheffield area but her accent is quite "pronounced" .... excuse me for posting this as an example of how complex regional accents can be in Britain .... thanks
sB3ieNhEsDY
andylama
May-4-11, 12:28 PM
(chuckling) Here's a perception surprise for ya: To my ears, that particular accent makes that cute little kid sound like a middle-aged housewife. (with respect to the speech patterns and little vocal affectations)
oh, though i've not been to Scotland....i have briefly visited Wales and i was utterly blown away by how the ancient language there is alive and well and still kicking ass (and, geez, it's but a two hour train ride from London but hell ya might as well have gone to France! LOL. actually, visually....the written Welsh language seemed somehow closer to Arabic than anything as modest as French.)
Welsh is much stronger language than Gaelic, either Irish or Scottish. Gaelic practically disappeared in Scotland and Ireland and even now there are very few fluent Gaelic speakers in Scotland - probably measured in hundreds rather than thousands. Ireland has made more of an attempt to keep it alive but there still aren't that many who speak more than a few words, despite it being taught in schools. In Wales though it never died out to anything like the same extent. North Wales was always the hotbed of the Welsh language, the places where signs in English would get painted green and holiday homes owned by English weekenders burnt down. 30 years ago I used to pump petrol at the first service station in England, and we used to get Welsh guys coming to the local car auction who would refuse to speak English too us. The militancy has died down since Wales got it's own government (admittedly with less power than their Scottish equivalent, but the Welsh realise that Wales as an independent country would never be viable), and all school children have Welsh language lessons, but it's still very much a minority language. There are still some areas in North Wales however where people speak Welsh as first choice, but go out of tourist season and a number of them miraculously all speak English.
Wow. I picked up on "every minute of the day", then beyond that, it sounds mostly foreign to me!
What amazes me is the depth of variation across a relatively small geographic space (referring to the UK). This is different than North America, where variations away from 'neutral American English' is more subtle, and really difficult accents (mostly in the deep south) are pretty isolated to specific cultural enclaves (i.e. Appalachian, Cajun, etc.) I have heard one dialect (can't remember--may have been rural Tennessee?) that was as difficult to me as the broad Shetland from the video, just in a very different way.
It's all 'English' though! Nifty!
British accents can change hugely in a very short distance. Birmingham, Wolverhampton & Dudley are within 20 miles of each other, yet locals can tell which town people come from. Go 20 miles further in any direction and they are completely different again. Liverpool and Manchester are 40 miles apart but the accents are completely different, Glasgow and Edinburgh 50 miles and the same. Even opposite sides of London have totally different accents.
And it's amazing how accents can change and adapt. My cousin has 3 kids who were born in Edinburgh. They speak with a Scottish accent but as he's from Yorkshire and the kids spend quite a lot of time with his parents they speak it with a definite Yorkshire slant. And the accents of some of the ethnic minorities fit in entirely with where they live, but often still retain some of the words and phrasing structures of their immigrant parents. I worked with guy once who was from Wolverhampton and his wife was from Manchester. They had their first child in Leeds, the 2nd near London somewhere and the 3rd in Shropshire. The end result was that everybody in the family had a different accent - most strange.
People have great difficulty working out where I come from by my accent. I was born in Kent (South East England) of a mother from Yorkshire (North England) and a father from the Channel Island of Jersey (very south, practically France), and then I moved to Shropshire (Midlands) when I was 5. As we saw more of the Yorkshire side of the family I have definite Yorkshire elements and some people guess I'm from there, but no one has ever guessed right.
so what you are suggesting here, David, is that part of the CT "smearing" technique may have as much to do with Elizabeth's speaking accent. does Elizabeth, in fact, have a rather heavy speaking accent?
Elizabeth's accent definitely plays a part - I think if you listen to Road River & Rail you hear it really strongly. But most of the time I don't believe she's singing in any language at all, she's simply using her voice as an instrument, but an instrument with a Scottish accent (and what an instrument!)
by the sea
May-4-11, 1:51 PM
I read about this a while ago but after hearing some examples I thought "this sucks".
I can't even talk about Liz Fraser right now. She's so mean.
randomrob
May-4-11, 4:31 PM
4_IsJsptEYQ
fredofla
May-4-11, 5:11 PM
and:
the down side of Puirt a beul?
no other singer will ever dare attempt to cover your material.
the horror of:
LOST ROYALTIES!!!
okay now, Robin.....time for you to chime in.
hit me, baby!
Dpressed
May-4-11, 6:00 PM
Elizabeth's accent definitely plays a part - I think if you listen to Road River & Rail you hear it really strongly. But most of the time I don't believe she's singing in any language at all, she's simply using her voice as an instrument, but an instrument with a Scottish accent (and what an instrument!)
Exactly .... :thumbsup:
Many years ago I was going to the toilet (restroom) at a restaurant near Glasgow. what appeared to be a Glaswegian started talking to me. I couldn't understand any word of it so I replied "Excuse me, I'm Dutch, can you please talk plain English to me?" The man replyed at a slow pace but in the same dialect the same sentence. He was a real Blether. -that was Scottish. I learned that and a few other words from a forumite. I'm sorry this didn't contribute to the thread, but at least I took some time of your attention which makes me feel confident.
;-)
In general, as a foreigner, I never was in a language struggle. I was in Wales and the Shetlands. I visited Scotland many times. I can only say to the US peeps; Go there. It's beautiful.
Welsh is much stronger language than Gaelic, either Irish or Scottish. Gaelic practically disappeared in Scotland and Ireland and even now there are very few fluent Gaelic speakers in Scotland - probably measured in hundreds rather than thousands.
I'm not sure what your source is, but according to the General Register Office it's quite a few (nearly enough to warrant gaelic road signs in the lowlands).
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/news2005/scotlands-census-2001-gaelic-report.html
fredofla
May-4-11, 6:47 PM
is it possible that the lack of Puirt a beul in the songs around the time of 4CC was perhaps a logical signal that the best days of CT (the band) were likely numbered.
lyrical clarity was a symptom of their own decline and disease.
I knew about mouth music when I was a kid because my mom was always a great fan of Irish and Scottish folk music. I remember being excited about the band Mouthmusic's first record. But like Andy said before, they quickly dissolved into cheesy world beat trash. I do remember that I liked this song
/v/Ws0QlTubyZ4?fs=1&hl
But as far as Liz goes, I read somewhere that her big influence was Damo Suzuki from CAN. I can hear similarities to tracks like Vitamin C, for example, to the early tracks from Garlands and Lullabies.
Who knows? Whatever she was moving from, she kicked ass in CT.
fredofla
May-5-11, 12:06 PM
I knew about mouth music when I was a kid because my mom was always a great fan of Irish and Scottish folk music. I remember being excited about the band Mouthmusic's first record. But like Andy said before, they quickly dissolved into cheesy world beat trash. I do remember that I liked this song
/v/Ws0QlTubyZ4?fs=1&hl
great example, Edward. thanks!
Scottish..... and Hilarious to me. Wonderful.
8JvD0HPcfN4
fredofla
May-5-11, 5:02 PM
Scottish..... and Hilarious to me. Wonderful.
8JvD0HPcfN4
:crying::crying::crying::crying:
Dpressed
May-5-11, 5:16 PM
^^^^^
I'd love to hear the Rab C Nesbit version of that sketch
I'm not sure what your source is, but according to the General Register Office it's quite a few (nearly enough to warrant gaelic road signs in the lowlands).
http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press/news2005/scotlands-census-2001-gaelic-report.html
I may be out of date, but I did say fluent, and that report says 'some Gaelic language ability', which could mean a multitude of things. I have some ability in French and German, but I wouldn't be able to hold a conversation with anybody. I still hold with the fact that Gaelic is pretty irrelevant in Scotland however, although that may change if you vote yes to independence and Scotland goes looking deeper into its heritage.
Gaelic is not spoken in the part of Scotland where I live and hasn't been for some time (several hundred years). Scots is far more widely spoken.
I agree that "some gaelic ability" is vague - I can say hello and cheers; not sure if that counts me into their figures or not!
Galashiels company Mackinnon's produced a new tartan using spun nettle fibre for the fabric. The design they used was the Red Erskine (http://kelsokilts.co.uk/index.php/2011/01/18/erskine-red/). I think there are some things that don't translate so well from one language or dialect to another. When we let old ways of communicating go, we might well be losing something good.
I think the part of this song that starts at at 2:14 is puirt a beul. (I'm not sure about the rest of it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoApELfgWcg
(I don't know how to post YouTubes so they appear in my post!)
Welsh is much stronger language than Gaelic, either Irish or Scottish. Gaelic practically disappeared in Scotland and Ireland and even now there are very few fluent Gaelic speakers in Scotland - probably measured in hundreds rather than thousands. Ireland has made more of an attempt to keep it alive but there still aren't that many who speak more than a few words, despite it being taught in schools. In Wales though it never died out to anything like the same extent. North Wales was always the hotbed of the Welsh language, the places where signs in English would get painted green and holiday homes owned by English weekenders burnt down. 30 years ago I used to pump petrol at the first service station in England, and we used to get Welsh guys coming to the local car auction who would refuse to speak English too us. The militancy has died down since Wales got it's own government (admittedly with less power than their Scottish equivalent, but the Welsh realise that Wales as an independent country would never be viable), and all school children have Welsh language lessons, but it's still very much a minority language. There are still some areas in North Wales however where people speak Welsh as first choice, but go out of tourist season and a number of them miraculously all speak English.
Some of the comments here about Wales are a little off the mark - but just reinforce the English perception of it's nearist colonies. The SNP vote in this week's elections is going to make the debate on devolution so much more interesting - If Plaid Cymru was less associated with the language issue in Wales they would replicate this success.
I'm not advocating independance for Wales just wanted to highlight that Welsh is not a minority langauge , there are a lot of areas that speak Welsh as a first language and why is it a surprise when bilingual people decide to speak in whatever langauge that pleases them - it's a lot better than than the stereotypical Englisher abroad shouting louder hoping that they would be understood by "johnny foreigner"
Dpressed
May-8-11, 2:14 PM
^^^^^
But how many people in South Wales are truely bilingual ... I thought it was mid & North West Wales where people actually use the language.
^^^^^
But how many people in South Wales are truely bilingual ... I thought it was mid & North West Wales where people actually use the language.
20.00% at most
Some of the comments here about Wales are a little off the mark - but just reinforce the English perception of it's nearist colonies. The SNP vote in this week's elections is going to make the debate on devolution so much more interesting - If Plaid Cymru was less associated with the language issue in Wales they would replicate this success.
I'm not advocating independance for Wales just wanted to highlight that Welsh is not a minority langauge , there are a lot of areas that speak Welsh as a first language and why is it a surprise when bilingual people decide to speak in whatever langauge that pleases them - it's a lot better than than the stereotypical Englisher abroad shouting louder hoping that they would be understood by "johnny foreigner"
Which comment is off the mark? Do the Welsh not realise that they couldn't survive as a self-sustaining nation (without huge levels of taxation that would drive out any company or individual with money)? The summer/winter thing was from personal experience (and from a few other people as well). And 20% is a minority.
Quisquose
May-9-11, 9:50 AM
:popcorn:
preCicely
May-9-11, 12:35 PM
:coffee:
Which comment is off the mark? Do the Welsh not realise that they couldn't survive as a self-sustaining nation (without huge levels of taxation that would drive out any company or individual with money)? The summer/winter thing was from personal experience (and from a few other people as well). And 20% is a minority.
The English would like to believe that the Welsh / Scottish and Northern Irish could not survive financially as a self sustaining nation.
One of the things that I've always thought about is why there is no co-ordinated movement for devolution in England if we are perceived as such parasites to the National finances. We have free prescriptions and on the whole free tuition fees !!
This poses a real debate for regional / national identity e.g. I have friends who would never support England in any football match because it is England but would gladly cheer on Jessica Ennis for example winning a gold medal in her GB vest. Also Andy Murray also becomes Scottish the minute he loses
andylama
May-9-11, 5:29 PM
...I read somewhere that her big influence was Damo Suzuki from CAN.
Fascinating and most unexpected--a Krautrock connection?! :woo:
The English would like to believe that the Welsh / Scottish and Northern Irish could not survive financially as a self sustaining nation.
One of the things that I've always thought about is why there is no co-ordinated movement for devolution in England if we are perceived as such parasites to the National finances. We have free prescriptions and on the whole free tuition fees !!
This poses a real debate for regional / national identity e.g. I have friends who would never support England in any football match because it is England but would gladly cheer on Jessica Ennis for example winning a gold medal in her GB vest. Also Andy Murray also becomes Scottish the minute he loses
I never mentioned Northern Ireland as there's no way it would ever be given autonomy. Quite apart from the fact it gets massive financial support from central government there's the political aspect of it as well.
As for Wales, well all the reports I've seen have suggested that Wales would need a huge tax rise in order to support it as an independent country, but I can't pretend that I've been actively looking for detailed reports so I'm happy to be corrected.
Why is there no campaign for devolution in England? Well probably because most people don't see it as a purely financial matter. I'm British, but I happen to have been born in England. I don't think of England as a separate country however, never have and never will, it's just part of Great Britain. Devolution for me means splitting up Britain, something that I believe will weaken the country. I guess however that a certain number of Scots and Welsh see this differently, seemingly because of things that happened 100's of years ago. Quite why this constitutes a good reason split escapes me - most likely it's driven by politicians who want power and who've decided that stirring up nationalistic fervour and making out that people are an oppressed minority is one way to get it.
As far as I'm concerned not everything boils down to Pounds and Pence, and some things are worth paying for, and if that means paying more to Wales or indeed Scotland to deal with their specific issues then that is a price worth paying. When you're financing a nation then there will always be prosperous areas, poor area and also remote rural areas all with their own different needs and demands, and the deal is that everybody contributes and it's shared across the regions as required. The Highlands and Islands will always be a cash drain, just as some remote areas of Wales will be, it's the nature of upland low population areas, and everybody accepts that. Where the Westminster politicians fucked up was allowing the position where Scotland and Wales could have basic differences in what was paid for from the public purse and what wasn't, as that is something that was always going to be divisive. I don't think they actually thought it through fully, but they should have realised that the SNP and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru would always look for any kind of wedge they could use to split the countries apart, regardless of the billions it would cost to become independent countries.
I think splitting the UK into its component parts would devalue all of them irrevocably, and not just financially - the sum is worth far more than what it's made up of.
Dpressed
May-9-11, 6:12 PM
Somebody should also remind the Scots nationalists why England & Scotland joined. Basically Scotland put their money into a venture to establish a colony called "New Caledonia" on the Isthmus of Panama ... it was badly organised a disaster & so the Scots needed financial help & access to English overseas terrirtories ... the act of union saved them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darien_scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_Union_1707
agcu418
May-10-11, 2:09 PM
I think splitting the UK into its component parts would devalue all of them irrevocably, and not just financially - the sum is worth far more than what it's made up of.
Agreed !!
But if we did devolve it would mean that the country previous known as the "United kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" could have 4 entries in the Eurovision song contest - think of the block voting benefits we could have - of course if Wales won we would probably ask the English BBC to pay and host it for us as we would be too busy filming Dr Who to be bothered.
Anyway 1st semi - final is on in just under an hour can't wait -couldn't get tickets this year but did you know the year Charles and Diana got married was when Buck's Fizz won - I think there is a pattern emerging it wouldn't surprise me if Wills and Kate are in Germany now supporting Blue
funny thing is the oldie scotsch dialect i've heard some has sum oldie dutch influence like for example: sc.-"every"=ilka, ol dtch.-"elke"
lol this mouth music two albums i've got hem on tapes but nothing to play them on :aaa
her i sing you one gaelic song
(recording is surely 14 moerefokken years old-irish gaelic):
http://www.box.net/shared/jbzffmyu1l
some roomantic Burns scotsch song (more recent but before i ever knew that it's often good to use compressor when u record vocals & also helps to practice a few times what u sing before recording it ):
http://www.box.net/shared/8nxxooqgvu
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