Another reason why we should kiss Robin's ass

[etc etc]

I just got my copies of BBK and HOLV remasters two days ago and I was initially impressed on a stock Honda (sorry) car radio of the improvement in clarity, sound field and low end definition (in the car). Last night I had the chance to play HOLV on the nice little B&W speakers in my living room.....WOW!!!!!! It was like listening to a new album. While I do have some high end hearing loss due to old rock band days, I was amazed by how the textures of all the sounds are so much cleaner/clearer. The bass was always a little ill defined on my old cd of HOLV and lacked punch/growl and presence.....well, I found that those bass lines are as clear and powerful as I had hoped for (right in the room with me)..the clarity and presence have been restored. The drums/percussion/programming all take on a new light ...so much clearer and vibrant (for instance, the bass drum at the beginning of 'I Wear Your Ring' has such a boom to it like a cannon AND the reverberation after it, which I never really noticed, just makes it sound like a cannon blast over the Grand Canyon...that is just one example of many in one listening on good speakers!!!!). The guitar parts are so much more clear and stand out from one another while the chorus/flange effects are so much more robust and 'there'....the wailing guitars at the end of Fotzepolitic just rip with glorious frequency shifts from the wah wah and all the effects sounding like God tuning some fuzzy cosmic radio. The slide parts are so distinct (p.s. Robin, who/what inspired you to play the slide over the years.....the atmospheric rolls...especially on BBK are just some of the best/unique use of slide I've ever heard..trademark I might add!). So, people, go out and buy the remasters and pass on the old copies to potentially new fans.....but the improvement will blow you away. It is analogous to the twenty year project to clean the Sistine Chapel paintings/murals. I mean we all knew it was glorious before the cleaning (both Sistine and the CT discs) BUT you will be AMAZED at just how VIVID and CLEAN and CRISP these works are now...... it will feel as though Robin, Liz and Simon are in the room with you when you put these remasters on your system. Kudos to Robin.....I will be the first to smooch his beautiful ass!!!!!!!!!! Drop the trousers my good man! Just lay off the fried Mars bars and the aged chevre before I pucker up!

[zed]

.......ok! i'll go buy 'em! after all the nonsense with the first couple of reissues i wasn't gonna bother,......but HOLV and BBK are my absolute faves in rotateing order,..........and the way everyone's going on about them.......gotta do it i guess.

but, the "robin's ass part,.........weeeell. not this lifetime.

i'm sure he's crushed, but there you are.

Z.

[REPLICESS]

Don't have the re-masters yet, but been playing BBK on repeat for the past 2 days - had forgotten how beautiful it was.

By coincidence, I'm off to Guildford tomorrow, armed with £25 HMV vouchers (prezzies) and will pick up a few (as they are apparently £4.99 in HMV !!!) :)

[Phil Lawton]

.......ok! i'll go buy 'em! after all the nonsense with the first couple of reissues i wasn't gonna bother,......but

!

[3colors]

You want bass etc etc ? Get yourself a sub woofer. That bass drum hit was always there on the old CD's, a good eq and sub woofer will bring out the bass from a baby's cry.

Interesting you mentioned your hearing loss in the high frequency range, BBK's mix is centered around the mid to high ranges. A sub woofer makes a stunning difference, especially athol-brose being the most layered track. Go to a good hi-fi center and bring your BBK disc and get a demo with a sub woofer. I dare you to not buy one before leaving :-)


Phil: I can't help but sympathise with your feelings here. Why were the CD's not remastered properly in the first place 10 years ago? 4AD cash grab? Corporate greed? Grrrrrrrrrr.......

[zed]

........well,.......i believe it wasn't done ten years ago was because they COULDN'T ten years ago.

i'd purposely staded away from the remaster thing because,.....i'm not a real compleatist collector. i simply didn't need 'em, ....and, i've had enough corprate experiance to know that money, and only money really motavates a corperation.

no matter WHAT they say.........but. after hearing the raves come in for HOLV and BBK,.....well.......my weak spot got hit dead center.

the others seemed to be luke warm to say the most,.....but these two have garnered enough praise to make me curious.

i'll be checking bella union first,....before anywhere else though.

Z.

[etc etc]

3colors,
Keep your old copies....It doesn't make a difference to me. I own both the old copies and the remasters and there is a huge difference on very good speakers without a subwoofer, and with my personal high end roll off on the ears. Fact of the matter is, if the source (cd) doesn't have the full sound and dynamics, which is the case with the old discs, a subwoofer will just give you more of what you have.....louder muddy bass and other shortcomings in the quality.....mind you the originals are great, but the remasters are a noticeable improvement. Keep in mind, professional studios do not mix for subwoofers, just usually two very nice monitors which is what I have in the casa, and sure we can all go 'surround sound' and all that bullshit, but head to head, the new discs are NOTICEABLY BETTER with the same ears and same speakers. If you want a technical explanation they are available, but suffice to say that 13 and 15 years ago respectively the transfer from anolog master tape (which is the source for the BBK and HOLV masters) to the digital format left much to be desired as the transfer caused undesirable changes in the sound quality from the source...i.e. the mid range to high eq mix you shoot at me.....BUT for me that eq you talk about has always been the problem for me because it left the low mids and lows sounding weak and ill defined. The original masters (studio reel to reel) CLEARLY were not with those shortcomings as you will hear (or not if you choose) on the remastered cd's! The new transfers/remastering are done with much better equipment-maybe Robin can enlighten those of us interested in the process-and the results are very well worth it. You do whatever you want...no skin off my ass! I will happily be giving away my old cd's because they pale in comparison and I prefer the higher fidelity. The two discs, HOLV and BBK, cost me $18 US Bucks, the best deal I have had in a LONG LONG time.....most of the time you pay that much for one cd....I don't see what the problem is....it is a gift if you ask me!

[3colors]

The broohaha comes from the audiophiles. Frankly, there's no pleasing them. If you can't tell the difference between a 128/kbs mp3 vs. CD, then you probably won't detect much of a difference.

I don't think there is any profit in this for CT. I suspect Robin did this for 2 reasons. Firstly the fee, and secondly the chance to improve it. As I recall they came to him. I don't think he's going to look that gift horse in the mouth.

Some feedback please:

There are some curious inconsistancies with the sounds of various releases. ie. 84-87 ep bonanza we got from CT. EIASB + TD have a great big breathy sound. I've always loved the sound of them, especially "Ribbed and Veined". I have analog + CD versions and the both sound great. In fact, the CD transfer didn't lose anything IMOO.

Then we get LET + BBK. My favs, but arguably poorer sounding in general. Highly compressed and a big reduction in dynamic range. As you say, "a muddier mix". Interestingly these releases coincide with a gear/studio change which I think is the prime reason for this.

OTOH, HOLV has always sounded very good to me. Once again, another gear/studio change. A very BIG sound that is also quite crisp, giving enough breathing room. For me, the standout track is Fotzepolitic. Man alive! What a big sound!
Pitch The Baby, a nice crisp, clean sound.

I wonder if Simon would comment on why the bass on BBK sounds so thin and trebly? I suspect that maybe he went straight to the board with a direct box instead of miking his amp. That would explain alot. ie. For Phoebe Still A Baby, very weak bass considering the song really hinges on it.

Gee, maybe I should have started a separate thread for this?

Oh well, I'd kiss Robin's ass anyday if it would mean more music. No, I'm not gay...not that there is anything wrong with that! But boy oh boy would I give anything to hear the "Blue Sessions"

Blah...blah...blah

[etc etc]

Good points and questions 3colors,
If you have the $9 US/ 4.99 UK just go get HOLV and you won't regret it...I promise. It really comes to life on the remaster....you will hear the difference instantly and throughout...I paid more for tolls on my way home from NYC where I bought them!!!!!!! You raise good points with all the studio changes and gear changes....it can play into it without a doubt. The transfer process seems to be the bitch though...the conversion from anologue to digital...so much can go wrong and get bled out, especially in the old days. Maybe we can get a little clarity on some of these points from the man himself? I for one would be very interested to know what gear was used in the remastering...i.e. TC Electronics or other exciters/enhancers....compression....etc etc.......

[Phil Lawton]

Phil: I can't help but sympathise with your feelings here. Why were the CD's not remastered properly in the first place 10 years ago? 4AD cash grab? Corporate greed? Grrrrrrrrrr.......

Don't start me off.

[iceblink555]

Originally posted by 3colors
The broohaha comes from the audiophiles. Frankly, there's no pleasing them. If you can't tell the difference between a 128/kbs mp3 vs. CD, then you probably won't detect much of a difference.

boy oh boy would I give anything to hear the "Blue Sessions"


I'm certainly no audiophile, and my hearing isn't even so great, but my God, if someone can't tell the difference between 128kbps MP3 and CD, they must be DEAF!

What "Blue Sessions"?! Are you referring to the "unfinished" album?

--Alan

[simon raymonde]

with the bass it's hard to generalise...naturally had i been at the controls it may have been more prominent, yes i love the sound of bass, sure, and maybe with all the guitar odubs and pianos and whatnot with vocals, the bass needed a specific space to sit in, and far be it from me to criticise how those records sound now. If i had felt that the bass wasn't high enough or fat enough or whatever, i only needed to chime in and say, but i don't recall too many sulks or arguments about balance...i think only one person can truly mix a record like CT and Robin mixed them. As for the RECORDING of Bass on BBK, hmm i would imagine it would have been something quaint like a rockman box or such...i recall they may have been the thing around that time? or perhaps a rackmounted rocktron ? i really have hazy memory, perhaps robin will see this soon and throw his oar in...

[etc etc]

Simon, thanks for jumping in on this thread. Like I said above I think the bass is much more present on the remasters and I assume that the reel to reel studio masters sound(ed) beautiful like you said "(you) don't recall too many sulks or arguments about balance". It seems to me that all those years ago in the transfer from the studio master to the cd medium some things got lost and distorted, especially the low end frequencies. Since I play bass as well (78 P-bass and 69/70 Gibson Les Paul Recording Bass..a freak...plus I would offer to keep that Russell Fong Bass of yours warm any day!)..I'm pretty sure I hear some chorus/flange put on the bass around the BBK and HOLV sessions....I know from doing this myself that it often made the bass sound dreamy, but it often constricted the tone by losing some low end punch...could that have been a factor as well?....once again, the bass sounds full of bottom and growl now on the remasters, plus you can hear the fingertips on the strings at times its so clean now! But did you put chorus effects on in those days or did Robin put a bit on in the mix?

[3colors]

Simon: Thanks for spending the time to answer the speculative ramblings of the propeller-head sect of the forum. I don't doubt for a second the analog masters sound fabulous, those 4 inch reels on the Studer gives you alot of fidelity. As per usual, the record companies gave us the shaft...

Iceblink555: 9 out of 10 people I tested have failed the "is it mp3 or is it CD" test. Frankly, most people just don't care to train their ears to that sensitivity. I'm beginning to wish I didn't notice these things. I could have saved a bundle and some gray hairs.

Yes, I was refering to the unfinished project. "Blue sessions" taken from the cryptic remarks made by Simon before the break-up annoucement. He alluded to everyone being in a blue mood around September Sound at the time.

etc etc: That's it I'm sold. I'm going to purchase the BBK remaster. I can't ignore the advice from bass players :)

[iceblink555]

Originally posted by 3colors

Iceblink555: 9 out of 10 people I tested have failed the "is it mp3 or is it CD" test. Frankly, most people just don't care to train their ears to that sensitivity. I'm beginning to wish I didn't notice these things. I could have saved a bundle and some gray hairs.

Yes, I was refering to the unfinished project. "Blue sessions" taken from the cryptic remarks made by Simon before the break-up annoucement. He alluded to everyone being in a blue mood around September Sound at the time.


Wow, 9 out of 10, huh?! Incredible that so many people can't tell the difference. I don't even have very good hearing, and it's painfully obvious to me!

"Blue Sessions" for the "unfinished album". Hmmm... kinda has a ring to it. I've never heard anyone else use this term though--did you coin it yourself, 3colors?

--Alan
np: The Crystal Method - cherry twist

[etc etc]

3colors.....HOLV is the one I have played on the good speakers at home and have listened to the most, so get that one as well...I am sure BBK has the same improvement, but I have only listened to BBK in my car, it shines there so I am sure you will hear the improvement as well on BBK...you can't go wrong, your ears will thank you.