Is All Hope Lost?

[Megathor]

In my late forties now, I've been coming to this forum for quite some time. I even remember the early days of CT on the web (wasn't there a chatroom?)
But something tells me it's finally time to move on. Not sure why I even come here anymore. I guess there's still a part of me that wants to log in and see an announcement from the band that they're getting back together for one last gasp (it was here that I learned of their Coachella reunion and godamn was I ever excited!........and, eventually, godamn disappointed).

Running a record label sure as hell can't be profitable in the 21st century, can it? And Robin's output and touring, as great as it may be, can't go on forever. And Liz, no idea what she does for income, but since no one pays for music anymore I'm sure it doesn't come from royalties.

I know this band was never in it for the money, but I'm holding out hope that the next time they're offered $£$£$£ to play a festival they'll take it. Just wanna see them play one more time......

...but maybe it's time to move on......

[randomrob]

I come here for the community of people, not for CT.

[gustav]

I come here for the community of people, not for CT.

:nod:

[Quisquose]

I come here for the community of people, not for CT.

Yep, me too.

Megathor, it looks like you don't post much, so I assume you're mainly interested in the CT-related news, which gets more and more sparse with each passing year (save perhaps for Robin's consistent solo output). In that case I can understand why you would give up on the forum, but a lot of us get a lot of pleasure and camaraderie from the community that's left. It just doesn't have a lot to do with Cocteau Twins anymore.

To be blunt, yes, all hope is lost of CT ever reuniting. For that matter, I think it's highly unlikely Liz Fraser will ever get serious about putting out any solo material. These are things I realized and came to terms with gradually over the last 14 years. I'm not sad about it anymore, it just is what it is.

[Ghosty]

Ditto to the above.

Plus, I hope they don't ever get back together. it could only ruin the memory.

[Megathor]

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that at the community-at-large. I just meant that I question why I come here looking for CT news.

Seriously though, it must be frightening to have your royalties dry up. And I'm not just talking about CT. All these "older bands" who were once sitting pretty are getting worried. Now to make money you have to go out and tour??? You're not 22 anymore - it's not so easy. That Coachella offer was supposed to be a couple million, right? If they ever have another similar offer (and that's a BIG if), can they afford to pass it up? I think not and that's the one bit of hope I have left of seeing the band I've been a fan of for nearly thirty years make their magic one last time.

[randomrob]

For that matter, I think it's highly unlikely Liz Fraser will ever get serious about

-leaving the house:crying:

[davespear]

Sorry, I didn't mean to direct that at the community-at-large. I just meant that I question why I come here looking for CT news.

Seriously though, it must be frightening to have your royalties dry up. And I'm not just talking about CT. All these "older bands" who were once sitting pretty are getting worried. Now to make money you have to go out and tour??? You're not 22 anymore - it's not so easy. That Coachella offer was supposed to be a couple million, right? If they ever have another similar offer (and that's a BIG if), can they afford to pass it up? I think not and that's the one bit of hope I have left of seeing the band I've been a fan of for nearly thirty years make their magic one last time.

good post, but we can all live in hope can't we?

[Tinspur]

That Coachella offer was supposed to be a couple million, right? If they ever have another similar offer (and that's a BIG if), can they afford to pass it up? I think not and that's the one bit of hope I have left of seeing the band I've been a fan of for nearly thirty years make their magic one last time.

For the band members, it was never about the money, it was about the music. Sure, it would be nice for them to have a few extra bucks in their pocket, maybe for new equipment or touring, etc (and in Simon's case, a few extra bucks for Bella Union), but their true aim is making/supporting beautiful music, a sentiment that seems all too rare in this Top 40-driven money machine they call music now...it's one of the reasons I respect them so much, it's refreshing actually.

[Dpressed]

good post, but we can all live in hope can't we?

If you want to live in Hope. move to the Derbyshire Peak District

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope,_Derbyshire

& if you want look on the Brightside, move to north Sheffield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brightside,_South_Yorkshire

[davespear]

Well Hope certainly looks appealing:nod: but Brightside's a bit too industrious for me

When I was a kid, we went camping a lot, and I remember a few odd place names:
a village called 'once brewed' in Nothumberland, and somewhere on the Yorshire moors, a place called 'Blubberhouses'

I definitely would not like to live in 'Shitterton'

[Tafkap]

I agree that it's sad to think we'll not see or hear from the band again, but then again..the way that Liz sings is very intense and maybe the vocal chords aren't quite what they used to be, or at least an octave or two lower!

In that respect I'd rather not see her struggle on stage to reach particular notes or remember phrasing.

I reckon the only way she'll go on stage again is with Massive Attack, and it's ironic that despite all her years with Cocteau Twins, it'll be her work with them that she'll be remembered for by most people.

Absolutely no-one I speak to has heard of Cocteau Twins, so this site is a beacon of solidarity, proving that I'm not nuts to follow them still after all this time.. Or maybe we're all nuts. lol.

[winters]

Nicely put, Tafkap

[randomrob]

we get to own our memories, that is the joy of experience... to want someone to recreate what they made in their 20s? It's not right. The joy of this place is being connected with those highly unusual different people who loved a music that 9 out of 10 people thought was too weird for them. Come to the forums and celebrate a fellowship of good taste, and enjoy the music- it's not going anywhere.

But for wishing against hope for a reunion?

http://janesloveshack.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/let20it20go.gif

[agcu418]

I agree that it's sad to think we'll not see or hear from the band again, but then again..the way that Liz sings is very intense and maybe the vocal chords aren't quite what they used to be, or at least an octave or two lower!

In that respect I'd rather not see her struggle on stage to reach particular notes or remember phrasing.

I reckon the only way she'll go on stage again is with Massive Attack, and it's ironic that despite all her years with Cocteau Twins, it'll be her work with them that she'll be remembered for by most people.

Absolutely no-one I speak to has heard of Cocteau Twins, so this site is a beacon of solidarity, proving that I'm not nuts to follow them still after all this time.. Or maybe we're all nuts. lol.

Tafkap - just listen to Kate Bush's new album and you will hear how good a voice register an octave or two lower can be :lol:

[dprid]

Seriously though, it must be frightening to have your royalties dry up. And I'm not just talking about CT. All these "older bands" who were once sitting pretty are getting worried. Now to make money you have to go out and tour??? You're not 22 anymore - it's not so easy. That Coachella offer was supposed to be a couple million, right? If they ever have another similar offer (and that's a BIG if), can they afford to pass it up? I think not and that's the one bit of hope I have left of seeing the band I've been a fan of for nearly thirty years make their magic one last time.
If you believe Simon & Robin their contract with 4AD means they barely got any royalties anyway. You'll see constant references in what they write to the fact they have absolutely no rights to their own music.

[randomrob]

yah.. "Cocteau Twins" is an IP of 4AD.

[garp]

I don't think we need to hear from Robin on the amount of money they don't get. I trust from many earlier posts from him that this is not a point of conjecture. As for CT, that was then, the now is an entirely different and an interesting thing.

People and their work/ art change over time, so it is with us all. Living in the past isn't growing, it's just the past.

[Megathor]

Who's gonna break the news to WIRED?

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/01/coachella-reunion/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&pid=6011

[fredofla]

Who's gonna break the news to WIRED?

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/01/coachella-reunion/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Ind ex+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&pid=6011

:crying::crying::crying:

oh this is just lovely....

i say we send rRob now that he's officially studying public speaking.

;)

[randomrob]

:crying::crying::crying:

oh this is just lovely....

i say we send rRob now that he's officially studying public speaking.

;)


------------> IeqtAB1WgEw :dance::beathorse::dance:

[fredofla]

Coachella should only be so inspired to include a KC And The Sunshine Band.

[randomrob]

:nod:

[louis1st]

I reckon the only way she'll go on stage again is with Massive Attack, and it's ironic that despite all her years with Cocteau Twins, it'll be her work with them that she'll be remembered for by most people.

There are still the odd few people who mention Cocteau Twins, French & Saunders on Radio 2 at Christmas for one, just before they played Song To The Siren, apparently Ade Edmundson put it on a mix tape for Jennifer when they were courting...nice:)

[postlibyan]

really?

http://i54.tinypic.com/o5zsrt.jpg

[Chora]

sigh

[by the sea]

H4m3XYyT-CM

[winters]

ZpoEkN7zl-U

[randomrob]

y-AXTx4PcKI

[xoconostle]

It's criminal that the band members don't see better royalty returns. I remember back when "Victorialand" was released, an employee of the Rough Trade store in San Francisco telling me that their records outsold all others carried by the store. His assumption was that the band members were "rich."

It's difficult for lovers of the band's music to let go because of the depth of emotion and pleasure that the music inspired and continues to inspire. Not saying anything that anyone reading this doesn't know ... perhaps I'm just rationalizing my own inexplicable sentiment about the prospect of no possible reunion. When you move on from pain and resentment, you have to really move on. Revisiting is dangerous, unhealthy, perhaps even undignified.

There are some bands whom I loved "back in the day" e.g. Talking Heads and The Smiths whom I've always respected for not reuniting, despite the unfortunate fact that in either case there's really only one band member holding things up. David Byrne's reason is that there's been too much bad blood between he and Tina Weymoth (although you'd never know that from the loving commentary track on their recently released "Chronology" DVD) and who knows why Johnny Marr refuses to work with Morrissey at this point ... but honestly, how many long-overdue reunions aren't a disappointment? Gang of Four ... the zeitgeist had long since passed and the irony of band members being music industry executives was too harsh. Bauhaus ... fun, but similarly the magic was gone and nostalgia isn't substantial enough to sustain actual artistry. The Police ... absolutely pathetic by their own estimation. Only The Pixies reunion was universally lauded as "still great," but they had the good sense not to let it drag on for too long.

In the case of the Twins as with the Heads, there's obviously too much that's too personal and too deep between we-know-who, and despite my respect for her, Liz seems to be a radically changed person. Whatever personal healing she's experienced has put her into such a completely different place that recapturing what she originally had would be at best an awkward facsimile. My impression is that she's above stooping to pretending to be her younger self for financial gain.

There was a time when it seemed that Dead Can Dance would never be able to reconcile their own differences, yet they're currently engaged in their second attempt at a reunion. The zeit seems right. But that's them, and their circumstances are unique to them.

I don't know why I'm rambling here, sorry friends. Maybe it's because I remember so fondly what it was like to anticipate and then bring home a new CT record. They were usually released in late fall, so perfect for the holiday season and being cozy and warm indoors while getting to know stunningly beautiful new sounds. I miss that in popular music. As an now-older being I take the greatest pleasure in classical and world musics and "classic rock" but really miss innovative music that didn't rely overmuch on computers. I miss my friends with whom I loved Cocteau Twins who have since died. I miss my friend who worshipped Liz but didn't live to hear "Milk and Kisses."

Thank you for indulging this discursive and probably pointless venting. Acceptance is a beautiful thing. We have to accept that there will never be new CT recordings because it would be hell for the band which might negatively affect the music, but the undying love of all it inspired makes it difficult.

[Dpressed]

^^^^

Good post which certainly isn't pointless. Thanks

[winters]

ditto, great post - I think you summed it all up.

[andylama]

+1 Great post.

[JeffK]

I think Elizabeth's 2009 Guardian interview pretty much says it all, it's not going to happen. Robin and Simon are still making and producing great music, but Elizabeth does not seem very interested in singing anymore, and even if that were to change they're all different people now and any music they would make together would be different too. I have huge respect for Elizabeth and of course she can do as she pleases, but the quote in the interview from Damon Reece kinda sums it up: "The world is a sadder place without Elizabeth singing" - even if that singing won't ever be the same as it was 15+ years ago.

[by the sea]

wn9VoArnS44

[fredofla]

i'm just thankful that the CT catalog is as rich and as diverse as it is.

there's more than enough to keep me plenty amused for at least this life and probably half of another.

some art is, by its own making, infinitely deep:

7ERcqECoYP8

[xoconostle]

You are all so sweet. Thanks for making me feel like my emotional rant a few nights ago was understood. Cheers from California.

[randomrob]

VozZoFLsQQI

[davespear]

I agree with the others, a succinct and intelligent post from xoconostle:nod:

[Megathor]

Given that she's going to be performing CT songs at the upcoming concert, all hope is not lost.

[agcu418]

Given that she's going to be performing CT songs at the upcoming concert, all hope is not lost.

what do you reckon she will sing - this is why I need to go on the first night so it will all be complete surprise and then on the second night I can just enjoy even more as i won't be in such an anxious state.

[fredofla]

Given that she's going to be performing CT songs at the upcoming concert, all hope is not lost.

please don't spend the last of your savings for 70 minutes on the Southbank.

be sane (even for the real possibility of renewed hope)

food, shelter, warm clothes, family, friends and then (perhaps, with some luck) seventy minutes of Elizabeth Fraser.

proportion in life does matter....even when it comes to having an hour or so of a fantasy realized.

[bearclaw]

It's criminal that the band members don't see better royalty returns. I remember back when "Victorialand" was released, an employee of the Rough Trade store in San Francisco telling me that their records outsold all others carried by the store. His assumption was that the band members were "rich."

It's difficult for lovers of the band's music to let go because of the depth of emotion and pleasure that the music inspired and continues to inspire. Not saying anything that anyone reading this doesn't know ... perhaps I'm just rationalizing my own inexplicable sentiment about the prospect of no possible reunion. When you move on from pain and resentment, you have to really move on. Revisiting is dangerous, unhealthy, perhaps even undignified.

There are some bands whom I loved "back in the day" e.g. Talking Heads and The Smiths whom I've always respected for not reuniting, despite the unfortunate fact that in either case there's really only one band member holding things up. David Byrne's reason is that there's been too much bad blood between he and Tina Weymoth (although you'd never know that from the loving commentary track on their recently released "Chronology" DVD) and who knows why Johnny Marr refuses to work with Morrissey at this point ... but honestly, how many long-overdue reunions aren't a disappointment? Gang of Four ... the zeitgeist had long since passed and the irony of band members being music industry executives was too harsh. Bauhaus ... fun, but similarly the magic was gone and nostalgia isn't substantial enough to sustain actual artistry. The Police ... absolutely pathetic by their own estimation. Only The Pixies reunion was universally lauded as "still great," but they had the good sense not to let it drag on for too long.

In the case of the Twins as with the Heads, there's obviously too much that's too personal and too deep between we-know-who, and despite my respect for her, Liz seems to be a radically changed person. Whatever personal healing she's experienced has put her into such a completely different place that recapturing what she originally had would be at best an awkward facsimile. My impression is that she's above stooping to pretending to be her younger self for financial gain.

There was a time when it seemed that Dead Can Dance would never be able to reconcile their own differences, yet they're currently engaged in their second attempt at a reunion. The zeit seems right. But that's them, and their circumstances are unique to them.

I don't know why I'm rambling here, sorry friends. Maybe it's because I remember so fondly what it was like to anticipate and then bring home a new CT record. They were usually released in late fall, so perfect for the holiday season and being cozy and warm indoors while getting to know stunningly beautiful new sounds. I miss that in popular music. As an now-older being I take the greatest pleasure in classical and world musics and "classic rock" but really miss innovative music that didn't rely overmuch on computers. I miss my friends with whom I loved Cocteau Twins who have since died. I miss my friend who worshipped Liz but didn't live to hear "Milk and Kisses."

Thank you for indulging this discursive and probably pointless venting. Acceptance is a beautiful thing. We have to accept that there will never be new CT recordings because it would be hell for the band which might negatively affect the music, but the undying love of all it inspired makes it difficult.

a truly lovely and heartfelt post thank you

[hebe]

please don't spend the last of your savings for 70 minutes on the Southbank.

be sane (even for the real possibility of renewed hope)

food, shelter, warm clothes, family, friends and then (perhaps, with some luck) seventy minutes of Elizabeth Fraser.

proportion in life does matter....even when it comes to having an hour or so of a fantasy realized.


My advice is: spend your savings with this amazing fantasy! I will do the same! Lol

[fredofla]

My advice is: spend your savings with this amazing fantasy! I will do the same! Lol

i do hope you get your fantasy (even with the financial risk you are obviously willing to bring to yourself.)

sincerely.

but not Lol.

[hebe]

i do hope you get your fantasy (even with the financial risk you are obviously willing to bring to yourself.)

sincerely.

but not Lol.


If she doesn't show up I just got the refund!

Lol

[fredofla]

If she doesn't show up I just got the refund!

Lol

at least you didn't have to spend your last savings for Olympic-priced plane tickets and accommodations.

a most sensible fantasy, compared to many others here.

:2cents:

[Olwe]

@xoconostle: Yeah I remember that Rough Trade store, on Haight, wasn't it? I remember buying CDs there (late 80s, early 90s). There was also a great store in North Beach where you could find rare Euro-centric stuff. Otherwise....

AFA band finances, yeah, a long time ago Robert Fripp did a long rant on the record business and how crooked it was. He said it was typical for the label to own outright your music. You, the author/originator only retained a) your name on the song, i.e., you could always claim it as yours originally, and b) you had the right to play your songs publicly. Great, huh? And yeah, royalties, if you're not a huge pop name with huge lawyer muscle, would range from tiny to nothing. Fripp said Crimson toured incessantly; otherwise they wouldn't have made a dime. And back then labels played all sorts of games: a) trying to scare off band members and replace them with session stooges, b) Hollywood accounting, c) charging exorbitant fees for studio time. And it wasn't until Led Zep blew the touring world open, venues were very slimy/dishonest about hoarding receipts, too. . . . As they say in German: Kein Feier ohne Geier. (~Any party will attract vultures.)

Having said all that -- and I have no facts -- but I don't want to believe 4AD and Ivo Watts-Russell "ripped off" the CTs. If you have the dirt on 4AD et al, enlighten me. This is very unscientific of me, but judging from all the blank and/or screwed up faces I get when I introduce supposedly intelligent people to "higher music" (CT, DCD, TMC etc.), I'm guessing 4AD was a starving-artist, shoe-string operation -- at least not one of the big bad wolf-ish record labels.

AFA reunion/tour, I'd go and see a CT reunion concert, but only to donate them money. That is, I've never been that impressed with their live performances. CT music is magic. Their songs are spells. You can't just whip up spells in a live setting that easily. Problem #1 has always been the vocals. LF lays down very complex 3-part harmonies in the studio, which cannot be even remotely duplicated in concert -- even when she was young. She would need at least 2 backup vocalists trained to within an inch of their young lives to get the CT vocals down. And AFA personal animosities, I would guess that some % much of the CT breakup was due to dashed expectations. They produced pearls and the swine just turned their backs and walked away. How many genius artists suffered terribly from rejection in their lifetimes, suffered relationship breakdowns, etc.?

Typically, the genius artist is bringing on a revolution . . . and that's a very tough business model. I'm a writer and I'm trying to revolt myself. The state of lit is atrocious these days, but I'm trying to write for a future when people say about these times: "How could they have been so -- so . . ." yeah . . . .

[ScottyBHP]

I don't see it happening. Robin will never forgive her for ruining the Tonight Show appearance. I'm quite sure Lucy Belle wants her ma to do SOMETHING tho!!!!

[Olwe]

Lest we descend into gossiping, what exactly happened with the "Tonight Show appearance?"

[randomrob]

Infectious explosive career suicide.

[Olwe]

Okay, so I found a video of them on the TS singing Bluebeard and Liz sounds a bit like a Jamaican hyena maybe. Was that bad?

[edward]

yeah. that was bad.

[andylama]

LOL I concur. Live was never CT's forte.

[Olwe]

. . . and so this performance of Liz's sparked a crisis? What the hell were they doing on the Tonight Show anyway? The TS audience is mainly Midwesterners who think Willie Nelson is a bit too hoity-toity. Ugh! Talk about pearls before swine.

Talking about this so many years later makes us sort of like "music historians," I guess. But CT is just another case of wonderful art coming from, well, humans. I wish God/Goddess had simply set us up with an "angel account," i.e., all great, wonderful art/music/lit would come from certified angels -- instead of this very small subset of fellow humans. This business of real flesh-and-blood humans proxying the Muses, handling the heavenly, is just too fraught with complications. I'm saying that a human artist is typically ripped in half trying to be a conduit between heaven and Earth.

[randomrob]

I thought she was an inspired, fascinating and deeply personal singer, at the right place at the right time. But attuned singularly and quite passionately to HERSELF. Like, with a SELF-fetish.

I always thought heavenly or godly was about jettisoning fame and art and EGO and embarking on something that is about (hopefully) helping the poor. Like say, this lady:

http://barnard.edu/arx/html/hinduismhere/Mehta_files/image003.jpg

And even she's just channeling herself, too.

Now, if LF hugged all her fans? ... :D

[edward]

I saw her hug a girl.

[xoconostle]

@xoconostle: Yeah I remember that Rough Trade store, on Haight, wasn't it?

It was originally on Grant in North Beach, which was one of SF's hubs of punk/new wave back in the day. Then they moved to some awful nowhere location in SoMa (which is where they were when the clerk told me that Cocteau Twins were their biggest-seller.) By the time they made it to Haight Street, it was unrecognizable as the same company that used to be on Grant in the pre-CD days. Back then you they were as well known for selling Jamaican vinyl as emerging postpunk and industrial acts. I remember buying an enormous Cabaret Voltaire poster there for about fifty cents, haha.

Sorry for the months-late response. I don't visit here often enough.

[Megathor]

Indeed it is. Robin gives it to us straight:

http://www.list.co.uk/article/48451-ex-cocteau-twin-robin-guthrie-on-his-career-so-far-and-whats-in-store/

[davespear]

The past is the past, and I completely understand why CT members would want to keep it that way. Move on and all that

If you went through a relationship that went bad, would you want to go back there?

However, if it was just to earn a shedload of cash........other bands have done it

[Dpressed]

I should add that Hope isn't lost. Its still in the Peak district of Derbyshire. But my guess is that you'll need a 4WD or to take the train to reach it atm due to snow.

[darakish]

A theory...

When I was young I was a musician and songwriter. It was my lifeblood, my obsession, my reason to live.

Then my baby girl came along and she became my life, my reason to live. I couldn't find my music inside me anymore, but it was ok, because being a Mom was everything.

My girl is 22 now, and moving across the country in 2 weeks. My job is done, and I'm grateful that I've been blessed with the opportunity to nurture this beautiful human being into a strong capable adult.

Guess what? My muse has been singing her way back into my life, and I'm finding my music again. Rusty, yes, but it's still here.

Maybe Liz just needs to be a Mom right now.

[Olwe]

I'd still like to do music. As I've joked elsewhere, music is the one thing our lawyer kept for us when the fairies tossed us out of the Realm. Lots of success, darakish.

[darakish]

Thank you...and to you!