Cocteau Fans & Sexual Identity

[mmmender]

i've heard the story a million times......everyone considers cocteau twins to be a gay band.......as in they attract a huge homosexual following. let's test this theory out with a poll.

don't worry others can't see your results so vote honestly!

[ultracosmic]

being gay myself I dont consider the twins to be a Gay band

I work on the Gay strip of dallas and Im around Gay Men all day and they (generally) seem to like Cher and Kylie Minogue,,,yknow..dance diva stuff...
crap taste

I was playing some Liz stuff at work and someone asked me if it was Sarah Brightman
eeeekkkk
no

It used to be that it took guts to come out and so happy out gay people tended to be interesting people with character

now in the world of Will and Grace any sad rag can join the parade and I find that as a demographic Gays are just as tedious as the rest of mainstream society

Just another box in the world of commercialized commodified identity
...

[mmmender]

well david, at the time of my reply there were only two votes....one i'm assuming is yours as you've admitted to being gay and the other is mine as i'm bisexual. i dunno what it is though but over my many years in the cocteau world i've heard this story a million times before.....cocteau twins attract a gay following. personally i think they tend to attract a following that is a bit more marginal than mainstream so perhaps that's the reason! who the fuck knows??!!

thanks for your openenss on the subject, it's refreshing! i wholeheartedly agree with your comment about gays being just as tedious as the rest....there's good and bad among every demographic.

now then......can i ask you to move to toronto so that i can hook you up with my 'gay-but-oh-so-picky-best-friend'? :cool:

[REPLICESS]

I'm also Bi.
I've not heard the cocteau/gay connection before I must say.
Perhaps it's because the music is gentle & emotional ?......
*shrugs*


http://www.dubhead.purvision.com/replicess_files/boysonthefloor.jpg

[mmmender]

great pic......a true gary numan fan!

[REPLICESS]

Since '79 !!!!! :D

Bless 'im ;)

[mmmender]

'79? mind if i ask how old you are??

[REPLICESS]

I'm 35, which is fine by me - would have missed out on so much amazing music otherwise :)

[mmmender]

35 is a fine age, nothing to be ashamed of there....i'm not far off myself....i just turned 33 in june. i've been a cocteau fan since 1982.....damn now i'm feeling really damn old! :D

your gary numan avatar gives you away.....are you a gn collector as well? oh and are you a member of the tubeway army? :D

[REPLICESS]

yep, as you can imagine, I have everything Gary has ever written and see him on tour every year, go to conventions etc, etc....
Seeing him in London next weekend actually :)

[dynamine]

i myself have heard that as well,about cocteaus having a big gay
following,to me,who the fuck cares?i'm straight,and it never bothered
me for people to think a certain way about me cause the band
or music i'm into,or any of that.to me it does not matter what
you are,it's about the music,and the feeling you get deep
inside your gut.
"when you lay in ah!,on the bedroom floor and say oh smother
me mother" glad to read how real all of you are.looking forward
to chatting w/all.

[Antenna13]

While we're on the subject of sexual identity, I have a question for all the bisexual people out there. This is a weird question, but since you're attracted to people of both sexes, if you're going out w/someone, is it difficult to keep yourself from being distracted by all the people who are not the same sex as your partner? If you're going out w/a guy and he's got a really good-looking friend who is a girl and you're attracted to her, how do you keep from being distracted? I've always wondered how that works.

[mmmender]

well i can answer it in a very simple way by using your own example........it's exactly the same if you're a heterosexual person.......let's say you're a woman going out with a man.....how do you stop yourself from being attracted to other men when you're already dating a cute guy? even if he has a good looking friend?

there really is no difference!

[zed]

MMM......

nice answer.

in the end i supose it's all the same.

i'm "straight" notice the brakets...as an artist...i've been trained to see, both beauty and it's opposite.
i can well understnd the attractions involved. nothing is one hundred percent anything.i'm as odd as every one is. the only people with problems here are the ones who cannot, or will not believe this in themselves.

i mean as far as i'm concerned..who the fuck cares.

rave on...

Z.

[Antenna13]

People are fraught w/contradictions, and thank god or we'd all be boring. What I really hate are people who say that so and so isn't really who they say they are b/c they've contradicted themselves. "So and so's not really a punk b/c I saw them at a Backstreet Boys concert once..." and shit like that. It's totally fucking impossible not to be contradictory! I'd like to see someone try to stay perfectly in line w/their subscribed system of beliefs and see what happens. I've tried it, too.

[mmmender]

antenna13, i'm not really sure what to make of your last post but i certainly hope you didn't find my reply to your question 'contradictory'.....if so let me know and perhaps i can try and explain myself a bit better.

It's totally fucking impossible not to be contradictory! I'd like to see someone try to stay perfectly in line w/their subscribed system of beliefs and see what happens.
i completely agree with you here....conformity is something i've never been good at, adding to the fact that i assign myself with a different sexual identifcation than the norm and you've got some serious difficulties. trying to maintain your own belief system (no matter how fucked up it may seem to others) while living in a fairly conservative western culture can often be very tasking. that being said even when you do identify yourself with a certain group (say homosexuals for example) then there will even be contradictions within that group. an example of this is being bisexual....as there are many 'hardcore' gays out there who think that bisexuals are just closeted homos who are afraid to go 'full swing'. so you see each and every group, no matter how radical or conservative will test you! i think it's important to ensure that you've got a good support system through family and friends to help keep you afloat!

[Phil Lawton]

I should no longer be surprised by the frankness of CT freaks, but I am and regularly.

Interesting topic, Lees. FredOfLA on the .com board hinted toward this subject a while back, although there wasn't much take up of his idea at the time.

Maybe it's a mark of this site's attraction that it allows CT fans to be even more open than usual.

Just for the record, I'm straight. Isn't it odd how there's always the compulsion to add "but I have several gay friends"? Why d'ya reckon that is?

[zed]

Phil....

i honestly don't know....

maybe just trying to not seem an outsider, (now there's a weird thought!)..maybe just to seem friendly.

i never thought to mention it.
it just seems normal to have a full range of friends.

:) Z.


ps...besides, you've undoubtedly have friends you'd never suspect.

afterall, i wore mascara quite reguarly in the seventies.
caught major shit for it too.

oi! whatta world...

Z.


;)

[Phil Lawton]

I, too, used to use mascara....although it was only to scrawl "Property Of Her Majesty's Stationery Office" on my inner thigh.

There is a definite generic CT fan, though. It's an indefinable set of charateristics, so I won't attempt to outline it here, but it is detectable. Maybe we should take a leaf out of the grunge-fan book and wear some sort of identifying piece of clothing?

I vote for cling-film jackets and potato skin trousers, with maybe a dead weasel motif and a jaunty Robin Hood hat. Although the casual onlooker may not guess that the wearer of such garb was a CT fan, he or she may well point and mutter something starting with a "c".

[zed]

Phil.......

LOVE the hat idea!


;)
Z.

[REPLICESS]

It's a shame I don't have more liberal friends. Most people I know are very uncomfortable with me being bi & and parent, as if I'll corrupt my children in some way !
I'm in a hetro relationship at the moment and have been for 6 years now. Simon is aware that I'm also attracted to women and doesn't have a problem with it.

[mmmender]

replicess, you should be thankful that your boyfriend is very accepting of your identity there are many men who find this sort of thing quite threatening. i know this from experience myself!

[Baddy2shoos]

how about having confused or bi-curious?, coz i wouldnt class myself as straight as an arrow but am not bisexual, just sick of men i guess lol

[ScottL]

Yeah, picking on gays/bi's raising kids on the basis corruption is crazy IMO. So many other sources of curruption(if such can be clearly indicated)...like..uh...religion(poor kids never knew what hit em).

It is like saying non-perscription drugs are inherently safe but perscription drugs are perfectly fine...everything the FDA approves for us is OK right? wrong...

[mmmender]

well said scott, very well said.

try raising 3 boys when you're a bisexual, athiest freak.......i can assure you i don't get invited to the parent/teachers association meetings!

[Baddy2shoos]

Mmmender you are definitely NOT a freak!!!

[mmmender]

try telling that to my neighbours!! :D

[Baddy2shoos]

Well id love to be your neighbour as you have gr8 taste in music for a start, are they ancient by any chance these neighbours?

[mmmender]

no.....just freaks!!! LOL

well, they fit my definition of freaks anyway.......very bizarre old widow lady and her extremely obese daughter who has fetishes for parking spaces, dogs and doritos.....now that's a freak!;)

[Baddy2shoos]

INDEED!! doritos...yuckkkk!

[ultracosmic]

well mmmender...
there you go
the majority of the board members who voted seem to be straight

all the gay guys are at guystats.com uploading pictures of their weewees
ookey

as far as people questioning your or anyones bisexuality...
i believe that most things in life are ever changing
remember biorhythms from the seventies (I'm 33)
and even my own sexuality and gender identity seems to shift and go through stages
some days butcher..some days femme-er
some days super gay
some days kinda bi (watch out Julianne Moore)

we have to label things to communcate with each other but don't get to attached because you just cause yourself grief when it starts to change

life is change
and that, my friends, is ultracosmic

[DEANCOCTEAU]

I have been reading these posts with great interest as I had never before encountered the view that the Cocteaus could be viewed as a Gay Band.
I have always thought that people who liked the Cocteau Twins were simply people with very good taste in music. I don't think sexual orientation comes into it. I have been impressed with this discussion and in particular the way everyone has been frank and Mature in their comments. In fact I hear a lot of level headed and educated voices here. I like it here!

Dean

[watchlar]

Well said Dean...even though I am gayer than groceries...

Steve

[zed]

Ultra...

indeed...beware of lables.

you stick one to yourself...you become that.

leave room to grow..life means to make you what you are..not what you resessaryly want to be.

learn to dig the skin you're in!!



:) Zed.

[mmmender]

ahhh so that explains all the rashes i've been getting!;)

stop digging at the skin i'm in and start digging the skin i'm in.....now i get it!:rolleyes:

[zed]

MMM.......

"digging the skin "......

yup...the single largest organ in/on the body.

billions of nerve endings.

exquisite sensations of pleasure and pain. and everything inbetween..............

i'm not going anywhere near the possiblitys.


today!



;) Z.

[curetwins]

Originally posted by REPLICESS
Since '79 !!!!! :D

Bless 'im ;)

are you a fan of 'information society' aswell, with the collaborations and all?


-jeff:)

[Lucibelle]

No. I would not say that Cocteau Twins is a Gay band. Many of my best friends are/have been gay and I was a hairdresser for many years. I have been to gay clubs on several occasions and have never once heard Cocteau Twins being played in any of them at any time. Yes. I know some gay people who listen to Cocteau Twins. Well, during and after high school most of my friends were punk/goth and many of them were gay. Some of them really were, some of them were being 'fashionable'. At least half of the people that I knew from that time who were gay now are not. So where does that put Cocteau Twins? Gay? Neo-Gay? Post-Neo-Gay? Of course, this doesn't make the Twins a 'straight' band either. An equal number of straight people say "huh?" when asked about the Cocteau Twins.:confused:

I would have to say that Cocteau Twins are a band for people not bound by the shackles of conformist radio, for one thing. These people understand that the best music is not found on commercial radio, decided upon by a commitee of people in business suits, drinking Starbucks coffee. "So all in favor of "The Lollipops", with their hair extentions and belly rings, becoming the next hit band say 'I'". "But sir, isn't it true that these girls don't play any instruments, don't write any of their own songs, and have their voices digitally altered because they can't stay on key?".......silence....... "You're fired!" But it only starts there. I think it's about as difficult to classify the people who listen to Cocteau Twins in any one, specific category as it is to PUT the Cocteau Twins into one, specific category. As I'm finding out through this site, the fans are just as unique as the band.

[zed]

LuciB...........


you are a real treausre!
LOL!

first laugh of the day...!!!


sorry phil..she got there first!

(starbucks coffee!..*snort*)

:) Z!

[curetwins]

perfectly said luci!! :)


-jeff

[mborum]

My, what a fertile discussion topic.

I'm gay, but even before I came out to myself, while I lived as a heterosexual, I never perceived the Cocteaus as a "gay band," although I did hear that from time to time. Nearly all my male friends identify as straight, and among them are many musicians and/or music aficionados, and they unequivocally share the belief that the Cocteau Twins were one of the most brilliant bands *ever*, and listen to them, to this day, without shame.

None of the guys I knew in college - even in my frat (*gasp*) disliked the Cocteau Twins. In fact, we played "Lorelei" at our parties during rush on a regular basis, and we were pretty much considered the "cool" fraternity on campus. (And I didn't attend some small artsy college, either; I went to Florida State.) Even at THE most popular dance club in Tallahassee, it was not uncommon to hear "Millimillenary" or "Wax and Wane" now and then. Of course, this was the late 80s and early 90s. SO MUCH has changed since then. Corporate "alterna-rock" has completely taken over college campuses.

On the other hand, very few of the gay men I have known in my life ever listened to the Cocteau Twins, and even fewer even knew who they were. Thankfully, my partner of five years knew who they were, and even had a favorite Cocteau Twins song, "Iceblink luck," when we met. That was a big plus for him. And he even admits to liking Cher! :-)

In my opinion, the "Cocteau Twins are for fags" comment usually comes from men who are obviously completely insecure about their own sexuality, or are trying so hard to overcompensate for their fears about their own masculinity, that they listen exclusively to testosterone-driven, angry, loud, rock music as a way to perform their heterosexuality and tell the world that this is "what real men listen to."

I'm convinced that this is why, in the male-dominated world of the music industry, that so much UTTER CRAP pervades the airwaves on radio and TV and is called "music." So-called "rock-n-roll" is almost the exclusive domain of men, with few exceptions, while "pop" tends to be more flexible. However, you find very few female artists who aren't playing to the male audience with their looks and sexuality rather than relying on their talent, when it exists. It's too bad that women have to actually think about that if they even want a record company to look twice at them.

It's all about what the average 22 year-old male with a few dollars wants to spend that money on, how he sees himself (or wants others to see him) socially, and what gets him off. It is RARELY about art or music for its own sake.

So people get the impression that the Cocteau Twins were all about sensitive, feminine faerie sprite people, and assumed it was all for girls and homos because their sound was so layered and melodic, and employed a female singer. If they'd bothered to actually LISTEN, they'd see that it was usually far darker and more complicated than that oversimplification would allow.

It's ultimately all about people putting their own prejudices and bigoted ideas onto the music they choose to listen to, because we all, in some way, look at our music as an integral part of our identity and are drawn to certain music because we see ourselves reflected in it. Sadly, this is exactly what record companies exploit in order to sell records, because it's human nature to buy things based on those emotional drivers rather than an appreciation of art.

I could go on, but I'll have mercy on the reader and stop here.

Michael

[mmmender]

hear, hear!!

[TigerZ]

I'm straight...first time I was ever asked that on a discussion board!;)

[zed]

mr. M.........


really , really well said.!!

i gotta say this thread has been one of the best to come along in a long while!

from the sublime to the ridiculous, back to the sublime again...

most gratifiying indeed!

thanks everyone!


:D
Z.

[someotherian]

a way to perform their heterosexuality

michael... excellent phrase! :D

[Lucibelle]

Brilliant, Michael! Truly brilliant!!

I'd like to add one more thought to the mix. Isn't it odd how society views a feminine male to somehow be lacking? How is this a bad thing? Even in the days of hunters and gatherers, not EVERY male aspired to be chief (for some truly incredible parallel, and not so parallel, examples of hunter/gatherer life, I highly suggest Elfquest)! In some native American tribes, truly feminine men and masculine women were considered to be rare gifts from God! They would often use these people in ceremonies where only one person from the tribe could be appointed to perform the ceremony on behalf of the entire tribe. In doing this, they felt that both the men and women were included and represented equally. These people were believed to be rare souls that were able to experience life in a unique, two-sided way. And the term "Indian giver" is taken way out of context, too! But that's another website....

Luci

[randomrob]

mmmender, I think you need broader categories here? Where's gay fundamentalist? Smoking section coffee hags? Runs from everyone? Livestock enthusiast? So hard to choose...... hmmm

[mmmender]

yeah well political correctness has never been one of my strong points........i also forgot to include 'one armed pre-operative lesbians in wheelchairs"!

[TigerZ]

...and desperate :D ...

[Lucibelle]

kind of like the joke about the parapalegic woman on the beach who is a virgin, and who deperately wants to have sex. A gorgeous young man is jogging along, finds her, hears her sad tale, takes her out of her wheelchair in a gentle embrace, then drops her at the ocean's edge with the tide coming in. "There!" he says, "You're screwed." Now just make the woman a wannabe bisexual, make the man a drag queen (he could be in a drag race along the beach!) and you're all set for hilarious, non 'PC' results for the whole family!!

[ultracosmic]

Great topic and posts all...

If anyone is interested in some books that offer some theory and insight into gender and culture...here they are

Transgender Warriorr by Leslie Fienberg
My Gender Workbook by Kate Bornstein
The Adonis Complex
Sissyphobia
The Zuni Man Woman
Any Camille Paglia

Gender Theory is a pet hobby of mine
probably started in the Eighties when I realized I was "differnt" and was influenced by Boy George, Annie Lennox, Grace Jones et. al

I have become a staunch feminist (pro-sex and pro-porn, of course) because I do belive the world needs balance and the patriarchal systems now in place just won't do.

Now a note to Mborum
Great Post
I wish more guys like you lived in Dallas. You seem very wise. The gay scene here is very South Beach Shallow. Fake and Bake Tans and Steroids. My boyfriend is a Cocteau-Spouse too. He loves "Carolyns Fingers" but really for him it's JOY DIVISION all the way!! We're both slightly goth damaged.

Take care all
Have an androgynous ultracosmic day

[REPLICESS]

Originally posted by ultracosmic
slightly goth damaged.

Love it ! :D

[Sentiment]

I`m very different from you all people.

It`s not that I`m shocked by all your sayings, I had my pseudo-orgiastic experiences in the past, but for me Cocteau is much more about..either weep on glass or holding and caressing someone I love deeply rather than sucking anyone`s cock under a bar than laugh about it the week after.

I thought I was a geek and that Cocteau fans were all geeks,
but it`s no different than all what I see happening around me every where and in any bars.

Perhaps I`m a party broker, but anyone who`d had jumped on me and hump me while I`d sing along to "From The Flagstone",
I`d had turn and say "excuse me ? What is your problem, sir?"

I mean, I understand sexual needs but...you can masturbate easily before going to a party. And than we can all kind of stay on the same "level" instead of having sleazes intimidating everyone else with their extravagant libido.

It`s not like sex is this big fair thing and that everyone will get their equals ways at this game. Each time sex gets in the way..some have fun. Others watch... That`s all the reason why people got shocked by sex in the first place, cos the big sad mystery in this world is that not everyone has it, not as easily, so people started to hide sex by respect for those who didn`t have it, right ? ok..that`s a stretch but...point being....cocteau fuckfest
is the least I expected.


Think I`m bitter?
That`s allright, I`m rough in bed too.

Cheers,

cedric

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
I`m very different from you all people.

Thanks goodness! I'd hate for us to all be the same. It'd be such a dreadful world if we were all the same. I mean, we'd all live for Brittney Spears or some rubbish.


It`s not that I`m shocked by all your sayings, I had my pseudo-orgiastic experiences in the past, but for me Cocteau is much more about..either weep on glass or holding and caressing someone I love deeply rather than sucking anyone`s cock under a bar than laugh about it the week after.


Hrmm. I've never had any pseudo-orgiastic experiences. My leaving a party was usually the cue for the orgy to begin. And just what is a 'pseudo-orgy' anyhoo? Either it is an orgy or it isn't.

The Cocteau Twins have never been about weeping on glass (try that dreadful Celene woman -- she's like an onion!) or holding and caressing someone I love deeply (try Diamanda Galás).

As for sucking cock, try humor (the band for sucking cock would have to be Schoolhouse Rock) and who's laughing about it a week later? (I'm sure I told those at the 'fest not to laugh, I can't help it's shaped the way it is. Just goes to tell you that just 'cause you've seen one doesn't mean you've seen them all.)


I thought I was a geek and that Cocteau fans were all geeks,
but it`s no different than all what I see happening around me every where and in any bars.


Geeks? That's not a word I'd ever associate with Cocteau Twins fans, but then, I've never tried to generalize, and after this past Cocteaufest, it's clear there are no real generizations.

I'm sorry if you think you're a geek, but that's not really my problem.

As for what you're seeing in bars and all around you, I've heard tales about Montreal and I guess they're all true. I don't see much around here but squirrels running on power lines. (I'm always amazed they don't get fried.)


Perhaps I`m a party broker, but anyone who`d had jumped on me and hump me while I`d sing along to "From The Flagstone",
I`d had turn and say "excuse me ? What is your problem, sir?"


Party pooper? Anyway, the joke I was making was singing the Cocteau Twins WHILE giving fellatio, not while RECEIVING it. That's why it's a joke. Look at me, I'm singing with a big fat cock in my mouth. Can you name the tune? Whooeee!

(I think there was a song with that lyric, actually ...)


I mean, I understand sexual needs but...you can masturbate easily before going to a party. And than we can all kind of stay on the same "level" instead of having sleazes intimidating everyone else with their extravagant libido.


Ok, this is just poop. If we wanted everyone to be on the same level, we'd put weights on all the fit people to equalize them with the unfit, random noise headsets to keep the smart people from concentrating and equalize them to the dumb people, and the other things mentioned in that quaint short story.

Or to paraphrase Eleanor Roosevelt, "No one can make you feel intimidated without your consent." And just because someone has a higher level of libido doesn't make them a sleeze. Maybe their libido is normal and not "extravagant" and those with less are simply libido challenged.

I say, more power to you extra libido sleazes. In fact, I bet you they DO masturbate before going to a party and still haven't gotten down to my level when they're feeling me up against the wall while Tystion sings rap in Welsh ... ooer ... I think I've wet meself!


It`s not like sex is this big fair thing and that everyone will get their equals ways at this game. Each time sex gets in the way..some have fun. Others watch... That`s all the reason why people got shocked by sex in the first place, cos the big sad mystery in this world is that not everyone has it, not as easily, so people started to hide sex by respect for those who didn`t have it, right ? ok..that`s a stretch but...point being....cocteau fuckfest
is the least I expected.


Sex is the greatest fair thing. Everyone is completely equal. The dumbest jocks get it as do the smartest geeks. People get shocked because they are taught to by others. And, if we are to be jaded, most people have no respect for anyone else, and they're certainly not going to defer on their self-pleasure out of respect for people who aren't getting any. No no no no. They are going to flaunt their getting some in all the faces of us ... I mean those ... who aren't getting any!

Now, I can't say I was expecting a Cocteau Fuckfest either, but once I saw go-go boys and a room full of gay men, my psychic sense began to clue me in. That and I called Miss Cleo. She said, "Yes, mon, for every quiver in that there girl Liz's melody there will be a head up and down bobbing on another man's hoozewhiz. And the women, they all be cunning linguists I say!"


Think I`m bitter?
That`s allright, I`m rough in bed too.


I'm not sure what being rough in bed as to do with bitterness, but I'm neither. On some days I may be salty, but bitter? Never! I daresay that you should drink more soy milk to solve that little bitterness problem.


Cheers,

cedric

Milk and kisses, darling, milk and kisses. :D

[Sentiment]

>>And just what is a 'pseudo-orgy' anyhoo?

Pseudo means sex done with a bunch of friends(4 or 5)
instead ofthe "real" thing, which means, "I met tons of people I didn`t know in some club and we all had sex". The "friend" thing stays intimate and affectuous, but often it breaks hearts too.
It`s not always clean, mostly happens when everyone had a drink and feel sexy toward another.


>>holding and caressing someone I love deeply

Treasure is all named after loved people or characters...HOLV is a lot about the love of one child, and I suppose their relationship at the time.


>Geeks? That's not a word I'd ever associate with Cocteau Twins >fans

Teenage school. There`s a party. You play Cocteau. You get geeked. Years later, less than an hundred meet in Boston.



>>never been about weeping

Sorry, many Cocteau songs are very sad, starting with those from which we know the lyrics. Actually, sex is a big issue I think, but you get a few songs about rape and such other themes.


>>the joke I was making

Do not worry, I wasn`t commenting on you, but on the threads in general. Everybody`s really horny here but...it`s the red chakrah thingie....I`m trying to lift up a level or two. I don`t see Cocteau as "red level" music. Try Gay Club Anthems Volume 69.


>>Maybe their libido is normal and not "extravagant"

Of course these parameters fluctuate. Soon..we`ll be fucking on metros and buses. I could never banalise sexuality like this. I`m wondering if the word "vulgarity" makes any sense nowadays?
Of course, "one man`s obscenity is another man`s erotica" but...
gimme a break, we`re not innocent, we know when we`re acting like fools otherwise we wouldn`t hear the word "embarassing" each second posts here.

"oops..Idid it again..."

Years ago, we would have never laugh to all the lame fart jokes in recent comedy films. Believe you me, this world is all about pushing the limits of accepting vulgarity. I can easily go to the bottom of that, it`s very easy yet we embrace it as liberating.
I guess it`s a phase ? Anal or something ?


>>more power to you extra libido sleazes.

Well...as hopeless as it all is.....there is just fuck left isn`t it..


>>Sex is the greatest fair thing. Everyone is completely equal.


Untrue. Pornstars get tons of it and get paid doing so. My couple last relationships were hell and lasted like..a month or 2 weeks. I don`t hit easily. You can easily spot on this forum the cute guys who`d get all my hits in a bar if they`d wanted. Sex IS unfair.
Period. Ask people who didn`t have the chance to touch another person`s body since a couple years, they are plenty, and soon...by 60 or 70, many of you will know that situation too.

And perhaps remember what I said here.

Would you fuck in front of a bunch of 70 years old men knowing
half of them won`t touch another body sexually in years ?
Of course it`s not your problem. They should have died young and pretty I guess... Some would argue that it`s great for them if they can "see", but that`s bullshit. Prostitution exist, that`s much better. At least prostitutes get paid for a "real effort" of having to touch people that disgust them, and I really respect them for that.


>they're certainly not going to defer on their self-pleasure out of >respect for people who aren't getting any.

Chambord once proclaimed that hedonism could work for a society only within the realm of morality, whence each person
would receive equal opportunity to access pleasure. In other words, it only functions if you suck the Elephant Man too, buddy, otherwise it`s a social failure. In a party, sex distort a mood and separate people instead of bringing them together (unless it`s a specifical sex party). Of course..gays have their things, they are "very open" about everyone touching up everybody`s ass in clubs. But hearing about all the breakups and post-party depressions, I don`t recommend the attitude.


At any rates, I`m used to realize no one ever share my opinions on these topics, unless they are religious ascete fanatics.


Perhaps I`m the highmonkey monk,

Cedric

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment
Of course..gays have their things, they are "very open" about everyone touching up everybody`s ass in clubs.

Is that so?

Perhaps I`m the highmonkey monk

Perhaps you're a twit.

[Sentiment]

>Is that so?

Big gay clubs in my city? yes.
Small student gay clubs in Boston ? perhaps not.

>Perhaps you're a twit.

Perhaps you feel attacked on some level so that you insult
me, I don`t think that me being more, say.."platonic" than "epicurian" (which was my whole point), makes me a twit.

Is your avatar greek too ?

Ced


"imbecility is the best thing human beings could invent to make believe they are superior from one another"
Amelie Nothomb

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment
[B]Perhaps you feel attacked on some level so that you insult
me...

Gee, am I that transparent?

[Sentiment]

Well dear drama queen,

I touch penis too,

I critic from experience and not from prejudice.


I suppose I`m the only one here who went to Procincetown for a day after the fest? Over there it`s full of drama queens.
It`s "gay this gay that" at each coffee club, and everyone looks at you thinking you`re a straight tourist that has nothing to do there if you don`t happen to have a buddy to take by the hand on the street. In other words, susceptibility flows. Gays are much about bitching and susceptibility..I`m out of this shit.

cheers,

Ced

[Kit]

Putting on Counselor Deanna Troi uniform

Dearest, darling, Cedric, (cue the song Dearheart) I don't know if you're just having a bit of fun, are just temporarily down and need a hug, or are one of those people who perpetually live in a state of gloom. Or you could be one of those email trolls who comes to lists and wreak havoc. I don't know. Right now we're just text on a page.

(Note, my post is too long, so I'm trimming your quotes to get it postable.)

I found your post a bit odd and non-sequitor. I responded with a post that contained enough oddness of its own so that hopefully people would be amused and not take it too seriously.

Am I to assume you took it seriously and are still being serious? I will respond and be a little more serious.

Originally posted by Sentiment
Pseudo means [snip]

Hmm. I've never had sex with 4 or 5 friends. If I did, I think I'd consider it as real as the sex I have 1 on 1. I've not had sex in a club, for that matter. I'm still friends with most of my exes, so this idea that sex and friendship is incompatible I think is a sad groove to be stuck in.

Affectuous is a cute word. I don't think it's a real one. It sounds like affectionate crossed with infectious. I think I'll use it at some point.

Should sex be clean? Or do you mean dirty because it's in public with strangers?

As for drinking, I don't, so it has no bearing on my feeling sexy towards someone or not.


Treasure is all named [snip].


That's an interesting observation. In the end, for me it's irrelevant. I have my own associations with both albums and they have their own meanings to me associated with how the music made me feel and what lyrics my brain came up with for them. Given that I like this band, those albums were played over and over and are associated with particular times in my life. Some of the songs have stories in my head as I mentally choreographed dances to them.


Teenage school. [snip] Years later, less than an hundred meet in Boston.


This is totally not my experience, nor have I run into people with this experience. I've also not used geeked as a verb, so I don't quite know what you're trying to say. Unless Myke played them at one of his parties, I don't think I've ever been at a party where the Cocteau Twins were being played.

The stereotype in my head about a geek is similar to that of a nerd. No social skills, avoiding social interactions by hiding behind a wall of school studies, not athletic, and probably doesn't listen to any sort of music let alone the Cocteau Twins.


Sorry, many Cocteau songs are very sad[snip] rape and such other themes.


That's nice. Nevertheless, the Cocteau Twins don't function in my life for when I need to weep. When a friend of mine from Freshman year of college died of cancer, I did not play the Cocteau Twins to channel those emotions. I played the Smiths. Their first album, actually.

I find many of the Cocteau Twins' songs wistful and bittersweet, like a sunset. The closest I get to sad with them is Crushed from the Lonely Is an Eyesore compilation. But that doesn't make we want to cry. It makes me dance a tale of love and loss and opportunities that slipped through my fingers.


Do not worry, I wasn't commenting on you, but on the threads in general. [snip] Try Gay Club Anthems Volume 69.


Maybe everyone's horny, maybe they're not. Maybe they're just having a bit of fun. It's nice they you're trying to lift it out of 2nd chakra, but it feels like you're trying to pull it down into boo-hoo land.

It really doesn't matter what you see the Cocteau Twins as. Every person thinks of them differently. I think part of the humor when I joined in is in the absurdity of putting their music in so sexual a context as fellatio, and the idea that we'd be trying to sing at all (let alone to the Cocteau Twins) while trying to give it.

Club Anthems are as limited in that respect as well. They don't sound like sex to me. They just happen to be played at clubs were often people are trying to obtain sex.

I also don't see the Cocteau Twins as being any one sort of music. Their albums are so different and have quite different feels which puts them in different use categories for me.


Of course these parameters fluctuate. [snip] the word "embarrassing" each second posts here.


Perhaps you'll be fucking on metros and buses. I won't. As for 'banality', you remind me of a friend I knew who never gave hugs. A hug for him was only done at a funeral and to do so more often, in his mind, lowered the value of a hug. I, of course, disagree. The hug I give at a funeral is not the hug I give to my roommates upon coming home.

Metro sex could be all sorts of things, from passing the time to connecting with deity. It's not something I have to worry about given the laws of the area I live in.

And what is wrong with acting like a fool? Especially on a message board? And are the people who say they're 'embarrassed' really so, or just feigning so? If more people acting the Fool, the less fucked up the world would be. Too many people cripple their lives for fear of being the Fool. I know too many straight-acting/appearing types who are too busy acting for fear of how others might perceive then rather than to be themselves.

I missed that. I thought being gay was sleeping with members of your own sex. Since I wasn't doing that in high school, I logically concluded, well, I'm not sleeping with men, therefore I'm not gay. Next order of business. Meanwhile, everyone else thought I was because I didn't mind being the first person on the dance floor or dancing by myself.


Years ago, we would have never laugh [snip] Anal or something ?


I neither know nor care. I don't go to those kind of movies. I think the comedy writers have gotten lazy, and the critics' reviews of movies such as Dumb and Dumberer indicate that the only people still laughing are probably too young to know any better.

It's a phase they can go through without me.


Well...as hopeless as it all is.....there is just fuck left isn't it..


Ok, I'm missing the hopelessness. There is so much more to my life than sex. I guess you'll have to fill me in on why you feel hopeless.

[Kit]

Untrue. Pornstars get tons of it [snip]


Ok, now you're being silly. Pornstars are actors. The sex they get on stage is different from when they're with people not on the clock. Given the variety of porn that's out there, including a whole genre of 'looks like it's done on a cheap videocam with amateurs, your 'porn as non-equalizer' thesis holds no waters. I believe there was a website for geek sex. So really, whatever your look, there's probably a porn with your type in it.

I'm glad you got of hellish relationships so quickly. I, however, don't judge my self-worth or the fairness on sex based on who people hit on at bars. I never get picked up at bars, and the Attic was no exception. The gay world is into Abercrombie and Fitch clones and obviously I totally do not fit that genre. But it really doesn't matter. Most of that type are so shallow they'd bore me to tears.

As for 60 to 70 year olds touching, perhaps you should go by the Ramrod. They seem to be doing just fine, thank you very much.

So, no, I won't be looking back and remembering your words. Happiness is a choice, and I'm not going to be an old "boo hoo" no one loves me geriatric.


Would you fuck in front [snip].


If I choose to fuck in front of other people, whether or not they've gotten any or years or not is not my concern. Perhaps they would live vicariously through me, perhaps not. But given the number of happy elderly folks I know, the idea that they should have died 'young and pretty' is so Logan's Run. Of course, many of the happy old people I know aren't pining away their lives in bars.

At this point, if you're being serious, I suggest you go seek out a sex therapist. You seem to have bought into society's "youth is good, old is bad" thing a little too much.


Chambord once proclaimed [snip].


Perhaps Chambord only said so because he wanted to make sure he was one of those getting some.

Again, therapy? It seems you're saying "real sex distorts and separates" but "superficial sex" doesn't, in the context of a party. And again, you seem to be at very different parties than I am.

Gays are many things, and to generalize is to tell half truths. Perhaps they are more open, but when society tells you you're damned and going to hell, sometimes you think that if you're going to hell anyway, you might as well explore some other options that were also banned as being hellbound ... like the separations of the physical from the spiritual and sex as evil and dirty. Also, touching everyone's ass in a club is not sex. And many party people partying at clubs are trapped in the drugs and booze to escape life syndrome. So off course there are post-party depressions. They're back to reality and they haven't tried learning how to cope with reality. This is also not just a gay thing. There are plenty of straight people stuck in the same rut.



At any rates, [snip].


Or perhaps some of us practice religions that don't separate the physical from the spiritual, and don't denigrate sex as dirty and evil. Perhaps all acts of love and pleasure are our rites.

Not having sex is not the answer to avoiding human interaction because you don't want to learn how to cope with another human being.


Perhaps I'm the highmonkey monk,


I just heard that song while looking up Crushed. I love that song. So Indian in a way with your vocalisms. Of course, Lisa Gerrard seems to do it more often.

Yay, I've made it through your post. Now to catch up on the rest of the thread! :D

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
I suppose I`m the only one here who went to Procincetown for a day after the fest? Over there it`s full of drama queens.
It`s "gay this gay that" at each coffee club, and everyone looks at you thinking you`re a straight tourist that has nothing to do there if you don`t happen to have a buddy to take by the hand on the street. In other words, susceptibility flows. Gays are much about bitching and susceptibility..I`m out of this shit.

Some may be like that, but not all. Gays can lack social skills as much as anyone else, and some have just exchanged one mask/closet for another. I don't hang around bitchy people. Just not worth it.

But I'm not going to paint a gloomy picture of the world because of them.

So it sounds like you were at the 'fest. Which one were you? :D Did we meet, or did you hid in the shadows?

[Sentiment]

>>are one of those people who perpetually live in a state of >>gloom.

Depends...I can be a total clown very easily, but I changed a lot since a few years (and obviously lost friends along the way). I`m becoming quite a gloom and angry type. It`s my fault truly, it happened since I started visiting the 9th floor of hospitals.

>this idea that sex and friendship is incompatible I think is a sad >groove to be stuck in.


I agree, I`d much better have sex with friends than with total strangers. And on that level, I met many people who thought that was pretty incestual and scary. But fucking friends can get messy if you dont pay attention at where the hearts are. Best is
when you have a partner, for sure.

>>Should sex be clean?

Yes. Clean means, being aware of the emotions and beings at play behind the sex. Not that you attach yourself or not on four trees in the wood as a fantasy.

>>No social skills


Exactly. All shoegazer bands were fans of Cocteau.


>>that doesn't make we want to cry.


They are tons of Cocteau songs that can make me cry, and at the Cocteau fest I had to hide my tears (which shows how far I was from the people laughing and dancing, but that`s my problem).
Even more ackward, it`s extremely rare that a band makes me weep. Perhaps RHP sometimes, but....


>boo-hoo land.

You`re right in fact, I tend to bring people there.
Boo-Hoo land is where you go when you meet the 4th law of wisdom, which is above 2.

>>They don't sound like sex to me

They are tons of sexual references in club anthems.
In Britney too, and she gets remixed for these clubs.
And act so innocent when the work is actually quite crude.
Cock teaser ?

>I, of course, disagree.

This is what thisworld lacks: hugs. We lack much more hugging than we do sex, in fact. But hugging filled with hypocrisy can also be the meanest thing.


>>acting for fear of how others might perceive then rather than >>to be themselves.


That`s most people, and not me. People do drugs and make sexual passes also because they don`t want to look like they`re uncool, stuck up and whatnot. It`s very hard being yourself.
I secluded myself long enough to be able to express my thoughts
freely, alas, sometimes in very undiplomatic ways. Acting like a fool if ok, but they are standards because we live in society and society is a consensus. In post nietzchean world, these standards are losing ground, and its in a desparate (and unconscious) attempt at re-instating them that I think artists and people try to push boundaries and "provoke" all the time.

But anarchy will never work. The day people will feel free to fuck in buses, it will meet moral standards and people will know bythem what is "ok" to do and what is "not". I think nowaday people are losing a sense of that, and it`s easy to blast anyone coming up with ideas on moral because there is no ground for it.
My only grounds here are "ego" and "selfishness". This is what I`m attacking.

><why you feel hopeless.

It`s an agnostical issue.

><The sex they get on stage is different

Im told that if they don`t enjoy the sex on stage, than they are bad and not what people look for.

>>there's probably a porn with your type in it.


As easily as I`d get excited by it, I`m against it for ethical and philosophical reasons. I`m the first to admit to get an hard on
in voyeurism, but the process was wrong. Porn fucked up my sexual life more than anything else. It`s way too up front.
Here in gay bars, they play porn while you try to speak gently. Soon heteros will do the same. Every goddam resto will have a porn tv. I hate it, it`s vulgar, sad, and dumb.

>>not going to be an old "boo hoo" no one loves me geriatric.


I hope so. And it`s a great attitude you have. But by now I know that in a second, your life can change abruptly, you can become paralized and aphasic. People in hospitals often boo-hoos after months of realizing less and less people visit them, and that they are not on the "tracks" anymore. Statistics prove that a majority of eldery people are lonely. These people can be you and me. I`m sure they use to party too. As a society we DO value youth and beauty. We post images of guys and girls having sex at 20-30 max (if not 16). And make publicity that incites to those.
I rarely see images of of old people having sex. Perhaps that would be comforting (?). I bet tons of people would just laugh.


>>society's "youth is good, old is bad"


See..you know what I`m talking about. It`s not that I buy into it.
It`s that I`m willing to bite at it, before Britney get old and sad and regret her stupidity at trying to excite old men proclaiming she is a virgin (which I can only imagine is the reason she had to do that, especially since she has admitted since it wasn`t true).

><sex as evil and dirty



I go further than that. I understand what you mean "spiritual meet physical". But I try to understand "WHY" sex could be once referrred as evil and dirty. Why is it so dirty ??? Why would God hate it ?? Why do we hide it to kids ?? My only answer is that, since people didn`t all have the same amount of it, those who passed their times doing it looked very selfish. The others were...truly, frustrated (they were ALSO game of the hearts involved in this topic, human being vulnerable beings in seek of love, behind the sex). Truly, if we all had the same penis sizes, pornstar looks etc, these moralistic views would have barely occur. That may be bad mentality, but it`s the winning side, it`s reality.

>Not having sex is not the answer to avoiding human interaction >because you don't want to learn how to cope with another >human being.


Sometimes you move further by tapping the shoulder of someone and listening to what she/he have to say rather than having sex with him/her.


><Did we meet, or did you hid in the shadows?


I didn`t meet anyone. I ended up hidden in one of your pictures.
I was trying to evitate being on anyone`s camera. You can easily spot a guy who really didn`t want to be seen.

Cheers,

Ced

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment
Gays are much about bitching and susceptibility...I`m out of this shit.

So it seems...

[Lucibelle]

Ok, sorry, but after being alerted I gotta step in here... this whole thing started with criticism of CocteauFest being a 'fuckfest'. Well, the only things that I can see as being remotely 'vulgar' AT CTfest was stratton attacking mmmender on the floor, and perhaps a few kisses and an occasional 'dirty dance'. Any of these things could indeed happen at any club for whatever reason. I'll be the first to admit, things got crazy last weekend, but these things happened BEFORE or AFTER the event. Behavior at the event remained fully clothed.

To expect people who listen to and love Cocteau Twins to behave in ANY expected way is unrealistic. We are all different people. Just because we listen to the same music does not make us the same people. Whatever arguements you want to have beyond that, please use the PM system to do this.

Everyone here is allowed their own opinions, but to have ANY particular expectations of people just because they love Cocteau Twins only attempts to rob others of their independence. Nobody at CTfest was expected to act in any way, or be anything other than who they were. Some were very social, taking the opportunity to get to know the other CT fans that had gathered there. Others were more reserved, choosing to 'people watch' more than interact. Still others were somewhere in between, and yes, requiring 'social lubricant'. And yes, some people were very 'close', but again, there was NO SEX at CTfest!

Everyone here is free to express themselves. Yes, sometimes there are arguements. Arguements are fine, so long as those involved respect that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. You can effectively argue without insulting each other. If you want to express your opinion, great. We understand that debates can get heated and people can have a bad day, and I'm just as guilty of this, but please, let's remember try to keep a level of respect. Sometimes people must just agree to disagree. That's really the one and only rule, other than 'please put your posts in the appropriate forums'.

If anyone wants to discuss this with me further, you may PM me or send me an email, available on my user profile.

[kookaburra]

You'd be surised, dear sentiment, at how much I agree with you. I do, however, take offense at your pigeonholing 'gays' (how I despise that term) as such. I certainly understand whence such stereotypes have evolved; yet, if you were the philopopher that you claim, you would know much better than to form your arguments around false perceptions.

Regarding CTFest: I didn't attend; so, it would be unfair for me to comment. But, I do find it repulsive that one would attend someone's party and publicly declaim it with such comparisons as 'fuckfest'. This deems you more common than the most vulgar of dry-humpers.

Finally: Platonism and Epicurianism are not polar opposites, i.e., neither theoretically nor practically. In fact, if you knew much of anything about either, you would see that many of the opinions you've expressed fall more on the Epicurian side. But it's a common error.

[mmmender]

for the record there was no group sex going on at cocteaufest!

we were all having good, clean fun and taking pictures at the same time. nothing wrong with that, is there?

gays are always feeling people up? don't you think that's a bit of a gross generalisation? surely you jest. there were many other gay people at cocteaufest who sat happily off to the sides and happily watched the rest of US make fools of ourselves.

while i'm at it.....what about the STRAIGHT people who jumped in on those picture fiascos? where do they fit into this sordid picture in your opinion?

we were all just having a good time, no one got hurt. those who wanted to participate DID and those who didn't DIDN'T.....you can't really argue with that now can you?

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
Exactly. All shoegazer bands were fans of Cocteau.

I only recently learned what a 'shoegazer band' was. That's what happens when you learn of music from college radio or the internet and not from interacting with the fans, band, or lives shows.

>>that doesn't make we want to cry.

They are tons of Cocteau songs that can make me cry, and at the Cocteau fest I had to hide my tears (which shows how far I was from the people laughing and dancing, but that`s my problem).
Even more ackward, it`s extremely rare that a band makes me weep. Perhaps RHP sometimes, but....

It's so amazing you brought that up. I was thinking about the things you've said and on my CD of mp3s happened upon the Red House Painters albums I'd bought from eMusic. I was thinking to post to you and say that they have far more of what I'd might think of weepy songs than I get from Cocteau Twins. I really like them as well.

Anyway, I'm still reading and digesting the rest of your post. Thanks for responding seriously and continuing this dialogue. :)

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
<The sex they get on stage is different

Im told that if they don`t enjoy the sex on stage, than they are bad and not what people look for.

I doubt that. It's a boring job with little variation. The actual event isn't that long so they film it from multiple angles and then keep playing the same thing from different angles to make it seem longer. Now, I'll admit I'm no expert, and the ones these days actually have plots and stuff and they're getting closer to having acting skills, but not really.

>>there's probably a porn with your type in it.

As easily as I`d get excited by it, I`m against it for ethical and philosophical reasons. I`m the first to admit to get an hard on
in voyeurism, but the process was wrong. Porn fucked up my sexual life more than anything else. It`s way too up front.
Here in gay bars, they play porn while you try to speak gently. Soon heteros will do the same. Every goddam resto will have a porn tv. I hate it, it`s vulgar, sad, and dumb.

I'm sorry to hear that. Porn did nothing for my sex life. My fantasies were far more interesting. I see nothing wrong with upfrontness. At lot of sex-phobia comes from the hiding of it. They have one bar here that plays porn, but I'm usually too busy dancing.

But it really doesn't matter. If we don't like it, we can not patronize those bars.

I hope so. And it`s a great attitude you have. But by now I know that in a second, your life can change abruptly, you can become paralized and aphasic. People in hospitals often boo-hoos after months of realizing less and less people visit them, and that they are not on the "tracks" anymore. Statistics prove that a majority of eldery people are lonely. These people can be you and me. I`m sure they use to party too. As a society we DO value youth and beauty. We post images of guys and girls having sex at 20-30 max (if not 16). And make publicity that incites to those.
I rarely see images of of old people having sex. Perhaps that would be comforting (?). I bet tons of people would just laugh.

Yes, life can change in an instant, and we deal with it as best we can. In the end we must depend on ourselves. We come into the world alone, and we may leave it alone. It's too bad if the elderly are lonely. I currently live in the attic of a sweet little old lady. I think having me here helps take the edge off. That and that her son and daughter do visit frequently. She's quite lucky that way. As is my grandmother. My parents live right next to her and help take care of her. Some student groups also make a point at visiting hospitals and old-folks homes and making sure to try and bring cheer to the elderly.

><sex as evil and dirty

I go further than that. I understand what you mean "spiritual meet physical". But I try to understand "WHY" sex could be once referrred as evil and dirty. Why is it so dirty ??? Why would God hate it ?? Why do we hide it to kids ?? My only answer is that, since people didn`t all have the same amount of it, those who passed their times doing it looked very selfish. The others were...truly, frustrated (they were ALSO game of the hearts involved in this topic, human being vulnerable beings in seek of love, behind the sex). Truly, if we all had the same penis sizes, pornstar looks etc, these moralistic views would have barely occur. That may be bad mentality, but it`s the winning side, it`s reality.

God doesn't hate sex, obviously. It's people who have the problem. We hide it to kids because we can't deal with it ourselves, so how can we help kids to deal with it. I don't agree that people don't like it because others who have it seem selfish.

Pronstar looks are not that great. Have you met a porn star? One came to a bar here and he seemed really depressed. He was basically a freak with a 10" dick and everyone treated him as such. It was sad. An object to be pointed at and gawked at. I don't think it's reality at all.

If we all were the same, perhaps no one would complain, but it wouldn't be living. We are all different. Some people wish others to be the same so they don't have to deal with the difference, but difference is natural, not similitude.

The problem is, some people think life shouldn't be fun and go out of their way to make anyone they see having fun not have fun. It's not enough that they live their life, they want to live others' lives as well.

Anyway, sorry I didn't get to meet you. I'll post more later probably.

[chaco75]

I live for britney spears

[Sentiment]

>>Nobody at CTfest was expected to act in any way

The first type of people that were critiqued here were "the lurkers". I was a lurker, and what else could I do I arrived so late.
So I jut felt like starting a "Lurker VS Humpers" thread. Right ?

>your arguments around false perceptions.

Cos I said gay grab asses in clubs ?? Come with me, I`ll show you where they do things much more wild than that. Apparently they are "standard" gays that are just like everyday people but they seem to never go out or I have no idea where they go. Yes...a club or two that are half-empty, or mixed with straight cos it`s a cabaret of drag shows. At any rates...yes I`m pushing the envelope, you`re right. So what..they....or "we".....deserve it...


>repulsive that one would attend someone's party and publicly >declaim it with such comparisons as 'fuckfest'. This deems you >more common than the most vulgar of dry-humpers.


HA HA...That`s where I still keep a sense of humor in all this.
Cocteau FuckFest is a joke, obviously tons of people here are horny they should laugh at it.


>In fact, if you knew much of anything about either, you would >see that many of the opinions you've expressed fall more on the >Epicurian side.

Should I have called upon stoicism then ? Plato and Epicure are not polar, you are right. They are in fact not that much related.
But going along my comment I thought of something like, "let`s put a little Plato in the Epicure". Like adding that special herb in a recipe that fits the perfect formula.


>for the record there was no group sex going on at cocteaufest!

You obviously missed the bathroom spot.

(ok..just kidding).

>>you can't really argue with that now can you?


But the karaoke whould have enticed people at participating.
When good friends hump each others it`s more intimidating and that is why peope like "Mr. Ced Here" end up in the corner walls.
That is how one argues ;-)

>>where do they fit into this sordid picture in your opinion?

Who was straight ? They looked gay, what can I say.
Ok...there was that very tranquille guy in the pictures who look handsome and helped prepare the event..he didn`t look gay. Everyone else did. Period.

(heheheeh) If they`re straight they are perverse as HELL and they just look gay to make it look ok. Straight who looks gay are the most perverse people you can imagine.

(I`m kidding)


>>we can not patronize those bars.

A good portions of the clients find them really annoying, regardless of their sexual behaviors. They destroy the atmosphere. You see sperm before you even start to seduce someone. And people have no choice to go to these places for their cruise and they cope with it but find it annoying.


>God doesn't hate sex, obviously.

Depends of your religion. I thought sex in the Bible came as a reminder of our "original sin". I question this...what original sin ? It`s a very interesting topic, philosophically.

>I don't agree that people don't like it because others who have >it seem selfish.


Ok..picture Bible era people....(fleeting jews)..or better:you`re in Afghanistan. People starve all day. They`re dying and whatnot.
You live next door...What you do ? People can hear you scream all day long having sex. That`s what I meant by "original sin" = ego = selfishness etc... the main issue that darkened sex was the selfishness of it. By selfish I mean that you could be selfish between 2 or 3 people....as long as you had sex all day, abusing of a god`s gift, instead of bringing the food to the people next door or whatever...You were looked as wrong. But there was a way to alter the situation. People had many wives at the time of the bible cos men were constantly dying and women were left alone and it was an attempt to share a community`s goods that made people behave like this. That was considered good and "unselfish".

If today you are a great couple and have a friend that`s constantly alone and you decide to open the couple to include that person, you somehow get away from the selfishness and closer to the hedonist moral I referred about earlier, but that`s utopia. We do not controle desire to a state where everyone could be included in the long run, like very own mr. "Jesus" suggested: "oh..please love one another, my darlings...". But Foucault thought that we did, actually. This is the motto behing Cocteau`s beauty and the beast, that desire can be ...hmm..."developed" or "earned"..as such... (shit..can`t find the term I mean). But we are far from that. Desire is very uni-oriented toward the self nowadays, and when people meet and desire each others, and the emotion is reciprocal, it`s pure luck and chance. Now...for a long time people used to have to develop the desire for the people they were forced to marry, in case you think things were always like this. So...following uniquely your own desire was considered selfish and inappropriate. A sin, as such. Cos following desire create more mess than anything really constructive, as people have noticed since a lonnngggg time.
How many couples break up each day ? Desire is a wrong attest at making you believe you love someone have really are fit to spend your life with.

>The problem is, some people think life shouldn't be fun and go >out of their way to make anyone they see having fun not have >fun


Kookaburra will critique me but... The Stoicians believed that wisdom lied in remembering and reasserting that life wasn`t just about having fun. That there was a constant balance of the sufferance that needed to be dealt with. That in nature, all was linked, and that you couldn`t pass your way if you saw an animal wounded on your trespass.

The hedonists were thinking like you, that life only made sense through a constant seek of pleasure. But there was a thing they called "arrythmecia" of pleasure, or in cloer terms, moderation.
As in...you eat too much, you get fat, end of the pleasure.
So you don`t wanna get there.


These people debated for centuries, my friend...

Ced

[mmmender]

Who was straight ? They looked gay, what can I say.
Ok...there was that very tranquille guy in the pictures who look handsome and helped prepare the event..he didn`t look gay. Everyone else did. Period.

well i'm not about to go down a list of names simply for your benefit, nor would they appreciate me identifying their sexual preferences in a public forum. you'll just have to take my word for it that there were MANY straight people at the event.

btw, the person you're speaking of is my best friend tony (debaser on this forum) and he's as gay as can be.

goes to show you how good you are at spotting "gay" people!

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment

The hedonists were thinking like you, that life only made sense through a constant seek of pleasure.

Like me? I have neither affirmed nor hinted at such a 'philosophy'. In form and style, your argument matches your diction--quite weak.

[Musette]

Originally posted by Sentiment

Depends of your religion. I thought sex in the Bible came as a reminder of our "original sin". I question this...what original sin ? It`s a very interesting topic, philosophically.


No it's not. It's been......done to death.

[zed]

...........live and let...............

you lot finish it.
it still all goes on, within you, and without you.

we each have a place. respect each other.

take care,.......you silly things.
love,
Z.

[ScottL]

right on Zed.

Re: chakras, I've been considering them abstractly and had some general thoughts that may or maynot pertain to some of what was mentioned here... I think boohooland is stuck in the 1st chakra, the mundane, but maintains its poopoo streak right up through 3rd chakra...bringing one to material wealth...like sex, not everyone gets it equally. so should we not spend money in public, as it is vulgar because others cannot have it?

In terms of the Kundalini, 4th chakra is the apparent turning point...from flesh to spirit, or to no longer be encumbered by the toil of the flesh...once passed it seems one may be and do all the physical things, just a difference in perspective however. Like seeing the mind as a functoin of the consiousness, not the source.
And letting go of fear, we all die and with us go all the fears of the first 3 chakras...survival, sex, wealth...wish I was free of such fears.

I like to toy with such generalizations, making conclusions about the a specific group of people based on generalizations seems a bit aribitrary.

[fredofla]

i think sex is mostly divine.

yeah it can get messy, but i would still highly recommend it.


;)

[mmmender]

i'll second that fred!

[REPLICESS]

As long as you have tissues to hand, or you swallow ....... ;)

The Cocteaus always accompany me & my man when we wanna 'snuggle'.....

It's magic

[Sentiment]

>>goes to show you how good you are at spotting "gay" people!

Ok....That Alan from montreal does look straight.

But you`re right I`m totally off. "Gay look" is a joke. They are tons of straight people that 8 years ago, people would have said "gay". Men are simply paying more attention to their look.
NOT that Alan doesn`t. He just doesn`t cut his beard with razor edges and such detail. That said, in the bear community, they don`t either. So it`s all very silly.


>Like me? I have neither affirmed nor hinted at such a 'philosophy'.


No..like Kit. I was talking to kit...I said "kooka will be angry". I was right. You are pissed off.


>>argument matches your diction--quite weak.

Now that`s pretty condescending. I`ll accept your opinion regarding my arguments, but I`m czech and french before being english. I do not master this language.

You should debate your arguments instead of acting like such an initiated ass. You don`t have time ? Than just don`t even read. I`m an idiot to you. Period.

>>should we not spend money in public, as it is vulgar because >>others cannot have it?


Read Marx. People have assumptions here that the "way we live" is the "normal" way...undiscussable, like it was always the same.
It`s the wrongest assumption: values (moral, etc..) fluctuate because people debate them, sometimes at the risk of their life.



>i think sex is mostly divine.


But doesn`t it hurt when a longtime lover quits you
and you learn he or she`s fucking your best friend....hmm ?

Sex can mean hell and pain too. It`s not attributable to any value, I suppose. Compassion is divine, not desire.


Cheers,

Cedric

[mmmender]

Originally posted by Sentiment
[BBut doesn`t it hurt when a longtime lover quits you
and you learn he or she`s fucking your best friend....hmm ?

Sex can mean hell and pain too. It`s not attributable to any value, I suppose. Compassion is divine, not desire.
[/B]

sex and the loss of a significant other are not necessarily one in the same. there are people who have relationships that do not involve sex (or so i've heard!) sure it hurts when someone breaks your heart, but sex in and of itself is still a divine inter-mingling of heart, soul and flesh.

[fredofla]

Originally posted by Sentiment


>>>i think sex is mostly divine.

But doesn`t it hurt when a longtime lover quits you
and you learn he or she`s fucking your best friend....hmm ?




darlin, that's not sex, that's love (which is a whole other ball o wax entirely) and yeah "love" gets messy too.



Originally posted by Sentiment

Sex can mean hell and pain too.



......not when it's done right, hon.



:666:

[mmmender]

well it can mean hell and pain................if that's what turns yer crank, so to speak.

i, of course...........

*stopping myself*

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment
No..like Kit. I was talking to kit...I said "kooka will be angry". I was right. You are pissed off.

I am not pissed off.

[Phil Lawton]

O yes, you are.

We can tell by the way you're molesting that marsupial.

Fear not, Kook - I'll send the "recovery team" over.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Sentiment
>>argument matches your diction--quite weak.

Now that`s pretty condescending. I`ll accept your opinion regarding my arguments, but I`m czech and french before being english. I do not master this language.

This does not alter the fact that your word choice further hinders your arguments.

I'm an idiot to you. Period.

Perhaps you are wiser than I first thought.

<Phil, I'm really not.>

[ScottL]

Originally posted by Sentiment
Read Marx. People have assumptions here that the "way we live" is the "normal" way...undiscussable, like it was always the same.
It`s the wrongest assumption: values (moral, etc..) fluctuate because people debate them, sometimes at the risk of their life.


I've read some Marx, I do intend to read more.

But people have assumptions where? And how does this wrong assumption pertain to what I said? I'm aware of the status quo(in so far as I can perceive it, which may be insignificant to the reality of it), my point of questioning the vulgarity of open display of wealth was just that, I think the question could apply equally well as it did to sex. I've not stated or concluded anyone should or shouldn't discuss it.

Here is my guess....People, it seems, often compare themselves with others when they are not as well off in material sense(ie. the areas governed by the lower 3 chakras, to continue use of the metaphor). But they often find only images projected by their own desire, whether negative or positive. But who's to say where another person is at with their own spiritual path? If one sees vice(as they happen to define it) in the actions of others, do they feel superior to that person? That said, I guess as I try to perceive others, it is more a question of where my interation with them will lead me(and ultimately us)...not to know where they are heading or where they should go(including, but not limitted to, how they should act).

So I guess I'd conclude that open display of sex or wealth may have negative consequences, but so may hiding it. Hiding it may sustain the satus quo which may itself be the root of the problem. In which case, openness at the social level may bring about swift reform...or more fighting. I don't think there is a simple answer in choosing whether to hide it or not, neither addresses the true causes of discontent. But that is my opinion and may well change as I work through thoughts.

[dprid]

Originally posted by Sentiment
Read Marx. People have assumptions here that the "way we live" is the "normal" way...undiscussable, like it was always the same. It`s the wrongest assumption: values (moral, etc..) fluctuate because people debate them, sometimes at the risk of their life.


Read Marx?? Life's too short my friend and there are far too many other more interesting things to do. I used to spend ages contemplating all this sort of thing but I finally came to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely that I'd ever find the answer as many more intelligent than me had never found one, and that's always assuming that there actually is one anyway (other than 42 of course). So I now live quite contentedly without needing to know where I come from or where I'm going (in a global cosmic sense). What happens happens and I can only change a small part of it as it affects me.

[kookaburra]

The wisest words written in this thread:

Originally posted by dprid
Read Marx?? Life's too short my friend and there are far too many other more interesting things to do. I used to spend ages contemplating all this sort of thing but I finally came to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely that I'd ever find the answer as many more intelligent than me had never found one, and that's always assuming that there actually is one anyway (other than 42 of course). So I now live quite contentedly without needing to know where I come from or where I'm going (in a global cosmic sense). What happens happens and I can only change a small part of it as it affects me.

[chaco75]

oh, messy sex...dear, no! I hate messy sweaty sex, it has to be in a cold, clean room and I dont like the 18 year olds to make too much a fuss, just sort of lay there and be pretty and innocent-eyed...

[fredofla]

Originally posted by dprid
Read Marx?? Life's too short my friend and there are far too many other more interesting things to do. I used to spend ages contemplating all this sort of thing but I finally came to the conclusion that it was highly unlikely that I'd ever find the answer as many more intelligent than me had never found one, and that's always assuming that there actually is one anyway (other than 42 of course). So I now live quite contentedly without needing to know where I come from or where I'm going (in a global cosmic sense). What happens happens and I can only change a small part of it as it affects me.


...pragmatic existentialism?

yeh.....i do identify with this.

(though it doesn't make one popular as a dynamic political activist and tends to piss off the rabid revolutionaries who want to effect social change.)

....well, that's tuff.

some of us would far prefer to skip the barium exploratories for anxiety ulcers.


:1pimp:

[fredofla]

Originally posted by mmmender
well it can mean hell and pain................if that's what turns yer crank, so to speak.

i, of course...........

*stopping myself*


as in:

"things that hurt, teach...."

[ScottL]

Yeah life is short and I always try to sieze the day....and still contemplation is no loss for me. One may contemplate while another may spent countless hours seeking some answer. I expect no answer(esp. to what may be another person's question), contemplation has been its own reward, in my experience. Other people's wasted time bears little significance to me.

[Lucibelle]

"You should debate your arguments instead of acting like such an initiated ass."

You should practice what you preach!

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
>Like me? I have neither affirmed nor hinted at such a 'philosophy'.

No..like Kit. I was talking to kit...

Please leave me out of this discussion. I have left it because it is clear to me you do not understand anything I've posted. I don't know if it's because English isn't your first language or for some other reason, but I'm too busy with life in general to do anything more than accept that we are two very different people who don't agree and don't understand eachother.

Have a nice day.

P.S.

I've now caught up in this thread and know that you are Czeck and French before English which just goes to tell me that we're having culturaldifferences on top of linguistic ones.

But if you guys have taken the thread on sexual innuendo flirtiness on this board and turned it to philosophers, Marx, and chakras, I am so not spending any more time on it.

I don't like spending 3 hours working on a post (when I had more than enough other work to do ) which someone then reduces to "you're a hedonist".

P.P.S.

Czecks are hot. I dated one once and he had the HUGEST ... ego. ;) Russians are also quite nice, though culturally the men tend to think sex is supposed to be 'serious' while I think it should be 'playful' resulting in interesting interactions beneath the sheets.

[Sentiment]

>>vulgarity of open display of wealth


Vulgarity is everywhere, sex is mere metaphor.
Baudrillard talked about the Ob-scene circa the 60`s
and we`re right into it (profusion, excess, of information, of any type..war on tv).

>>But who's to say where another person is at with their own >>spiritual path?


Ultimately, no,one. Even Hitler shouldn`t be judged. We do it by social consensus. The whole topic rely on social consensus, not personal impressions. If the Cocteau board forum consensus decides I`m mad, then I`m mad, no one will ever know.

>>I don't think there is a simple answer in choosing whether to >>hide it or not,


Understandably. They are no moral grounds. Nietzche warned us before reliating into nihilism ("I think for myself....there`s no further point...fuck you all and die..."....basically....)

As soon as a few people agree on some points, they
are always others topoint at a different ways to see things.
It`s a mess.

>>than me had never found one


I do have a few hypothesis but it`s utopia.


>>The wisest words written in this thread

Yep. Nietzche was wise. Philosophy is nearly dead too.
Chances are a few saw things that Nietzche didn`t see
(Borges, Foucault, and a few religious gurus...).


>>dynamic political activist

We need more political activism...Post-modern cynicism is getting weary.

>>You should practice what you preach!


??? I pulled my cards, honestly.


>>reduces to "you're a hedonist".

You`re too post-modern.


>we are two very different people who don't agree and don't >understand eachother.

I understand you. I pulled ancient philosophies to explain why I didn`t agree, as to show that it`s no such drama since
the ideas we "think" we have had been turned and baked
since millenaries. Ideas are like religions. Jews and Catholics
can never agree about christ`s purpose. But there`s no offense.
Sorry for the extrapolation.


>>Czecks are hot. I dated one once and he had the HUGEST ... >>ego.


I`m not hot. I`m linked to Rodolphe, though.
A good man but impressive ego.

There`s people in my family that are very hot.
I look more like the lost king of Patagonia.

I`m a black sheep bastard.

Cheers,

Cedric

[Lucibelle]

blah....blah.....blah.....blah.....blah.....:rolle yes:

[Doomie]

I haven't really read this thread, but I saw that it's about sex and I just wanted to say that Lucibelle's current avatar is turning me on.

Thank you. Goodnight.

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
>>But who's to say where another person is at with their own
>>spiritual path?

Ultimately, no,one. Even Hitler shouldn`t be judged. We do it by social consensus. The whole topic rely on social consensus, not personal impressions. If the Cocteau board forum consensus decides I`m mad, then I`m mad, no one will ever know.
I don't need to wait for consensus. If I deem you mad, I will act accordingly. As for judging, you're doing it all over this board, and making a mess.

>>reduces to "you're a hedonist".

You`re too post-modern.
Your words, your mindset.

>we are two very different people who don't agree and don't >understand eachother.

I understand you. I pulled ancient philosophies to explain why I didn`t agree, as to show that it`s no such drama since the ideas we "think" we have had been turned and baked since millenaries. Ideas are like religions. Jews and Catholics can never agree about christ`s purpose. But there`s no offense. Sorry for the extrapolation.
No, you don't understand me. The ancient philosophies you chose were inappropriate and irrelevant.

http://www.blackirish.net/images/note.jpgYou never understood me, you never really tried.http://www.blackirish.net/images/note.jpg -- Kate Bush

As for "as to show that it's no such drama", please try and say this using other words because, to quote Princess Bride, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."
>>Czecks are hot. I dated one once and he had the HUGEST ...
>>ego.

I`m not hot. I`m linked to Rodolphe, though. A good man but impressive ego.

There`s people in my family that are very hot. I look more like the lost king of Patagonia.

I`m a black sheep bastard.
It was a joke and you fell for it. Nevertheless, whom I find hot is my call and not yours. You should let yourself stand as you are, not as whom you are linked to. Lost kings of Patagonia are hot. You wish you were as exciting as a black sheep bastard ...

[Rad]

Originally posted by Doomie
I haven't really read this thread, but I saw that it's about sex and I just wanted to say that Lucibelle's current avatar is turning me on.

Thank you. Goodnight.

roflmao Well that lightened the mood in here doomie! You're a dude.

>>>Even Hitler shouldn`t be judged

Speaking of Hitler, apparently there's a theory that dick-tators are what they are cuz of their small packages.
Then why aren't I a Fascist? :tongue:

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Radagast
apparently there's a theory that dick-tators are what they are cuz of their small packages.

Then why aren't I a Fascist?

Show me, and I'll tell you.

[Rad]

Oh that reminds me Kook. I have the perfect pic on my PC to scare you away for good! Though it's only HALF naked LOL! I honestly don't remember it being taken though :dunno:
And also Kook. That 'fascist' remard should already give you an idea already! No pic needed! :tongue:

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Kit
to quote Princess Bride, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."



roflmao

[Rad]

Originally posted by REPLICESS


The Cocteaus always accompany me & my man when we wanna 'snuggle'.....



I'm sorry to say this but, I'll prolly NEVER do that simply out of respect to Liz. From what I remember she seemed quite horrified at the idea! :roflmao:

[Kit]

Originally posted by Radagast
I'm sorry to say this but, I'll prolly NEVER do that simply out of respect to Liz. From what I remember she seemed quite horrified at the idea! :roflmao:

That's interesting. But I really can't know all of Liz's fears and bugaboos. I see the music as separate and will use it (in my personal use) as I see fit. If I want to do ritual, snuggle, take a path, or dance like Snoopy to it, then I will.

Now, I noticed you said 'probably' so I'm sure some fool fan could catch you in a snuggle and you not want to stop the moment to dissuade them from their musical choice (or they may have a mix tape on and a Cocteau Twins song takes you by surprise).

I am intrigued that you'd do such a thing, so thanks for posting that. I was with a lover Sunday morning who wanted some music and I stood there thinking, "Ok, the only thing in my CD player right now is the Cocteau Twins. Would they like them? How would it affect our mood?" I put on our college radio station which was playing jazz and they really liked it.

It's not because it was the Cocteau Twins, though. Imagine I had Diamanda in my deck. Would I really want to hear her screeching "This is the law of the plague, to teach when it is clean and when it is unclean" during some tender time? (Playful, cuddling tender time, not, "I'm gonna whup your ass and make you my baby" time where Diamanda might be very appropriate. ;)

[Rad]

I didn't think my abstaining from making love to CT would intrigue anyone. :dunno: Weird.
Personal choice is all. I don't mind if anyone else does it though. It's really none of my business.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.

[Kit]

Originally posted by Radagast
I didn't think my abstaining from making love to CT would intrigue anyone. :dunno: Weird.
Personal choice is all. I don't mind if anyone else does it though. It's really none of my business.
Hope I haven't offended anyone.

Just to be clear, I wasn't offended. :D When given the opportunity, I chose someone else (i.e. someone else's music than the Cocteau Twins, not someone else as a lover! lol). But had they (the lover) been a big Cocteau Twins fan, all bets would be off! ;)

[REPLICESS]

Originally posted by Kit
But had they been a big Cocteau Twins fan, all bets are off! ;)

He is. He finds their music very sensous.
Maybe he's thinking of Liz ? .................. ;)

[andylama]

Originally posted by Doomie
I haven't really read this thread, but I saw that it's about sex and I just wanted to say that Lucibelle's current avatar is turning me on.

No kidding, man! I'm glad she brought her back! That last little "oomph" the dancer does before the video loops...I CAN'T NOT WATCH IT! EVERY TIME!!

Tangent: I find that even though I currently have a pretty satisfying sex life, it does not diminish my fascination (and ability to be completely distracted by) "pr0n" and sexual themes in general.

/hopelessly obsessed

[Sentiment]

>>As for judging, you're doing it all over this board, and making a >>mess

I am not judging, and haven`t insulted anyone on this board except kooka. People feel insulted just cos I say I sensed
a standard in mood and that I wasn`t part of it ???

I made a few jokes about generalizations, so what.

I`m not the type to go "blah blah"..."you waste my time"...."you`re an idiot" to people. And I may be antisocial at parties precisely cos I need to evitate the people who end up acting this mean.

I discuss fiercely but never treat people like their opinions are shit and doesn`t matter.

(again..except kooka)



Cheers,

Cedric

[kookaburra]

Funny thing is that I haven't taken any of it to heart, Sent. You'd be surprised that I would agree with you regarding many of the general issues you've brought up. I simply didn't think this was the appropriate place to bring them up; especially considering the post-fest atmosphere within which these people were still celebrating.

Your insults directed at me are inconsequential, dear fellow; I receive them with neither personal loss nor personal gain. I meant it when I said I wasn't angry.

[Lucibelle]

Oh....my....GOD!!! Cedric, you are such a hypocrite! You do something, accuse someone else of doing it, then say you've never done it! And you've done it more than once. And no, I'm not going to explain myself. That doesn't seem to work.

And you've insulted me too, not just kook.

[Phil Lawton]

Does anyone recall what this thread's topic was?

Please, people, these are such empty, futile wastes of your energy and mental power. I love a good argument/discussion (God knows I like a ruck), but this posturing, pouting and petulance (the alliteration gland is working this morning, as you can probably tell) is so non-constructive (and, possibly, deconstructive).

Kit, get the kettle on. Cedric, get the biscuits out. Everyone else can lay the table....oh....there we go again.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Does anyone recall what this thread's topic was?

Please, people, these are such empty, futile wastes of your energy and mental power. I love a good argument/discussion (god know I like a ruck), but this posturing, pouting and petulance (the alliteration gland is working this morning, as you can probably tell) is so non-constructive (and, possibly, deconstructive).

Kit, get the kettle on. Cedric, get the biscuits out. Everyone else can lay the table....oh....there we go again.

It was about CT fans and sex, Phil. May I be the table?

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
It was about CT fans and sex, Phil. May I be the table?

Kook, you're incorigible.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Kook, you're incorigible.

Does that mean 'sexy'?

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Does that mean 'sexy'?

I think you may already know that I'm going to say "no" to that question, but I'll say it anyway.

No.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I think you may already know that I'm going to say "no" to that question, but I'll say it anyway.

No.

Does this mean that I'm not sexy?

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Does this mean that I'm not sexy?

I get the distinct feeling that I'm being led into a Kookaburian trap here. Even so....

No, it doesn't mean you're not sexy, although my denial of my statement inferring any lack of sexiness on your part does not, by default, mean that I think you are sexy.

There - that about covers it.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I get the distinct feeling that I'm being led into a Kookaburian trap here. Even so....

No, it doesn't mean you're not sexy, although my denial of my statement inferring any lack of sexiness on your part does not, by default, mean that I think you are sexy.

There - that about covers it.

Thanks for the compliment, Phil.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Thanks for the compliment, Phil.

Yep...I'm in the Kooky minefield alright.

OK...just stepping gingerly here.......ummm.....yes, got it.

Your welcome.

[kookaburra]

Careful, Phil. I'm far too crafty to come at you from below.

[Phil Lawton]

There's no answer to that.

[kookaburra]

Sorry to put you through that, Phil. I was overcome.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Sorry to put you through that, Phil. I was overcome.

No permanent psychological damage done, Kook.

[Sentiment]

>>>And you've insulted me too

Never intentionally, if I did. Sorry.


>It was about CT fans and sex

The thread was about sexual politics.

I`m not a George Putnam. Whoever brought the issue of money
was really close to what I wanted to express. Foucault once said that social politics were defined by sexuality. Or adorned, as such. They"go" together. Hence...There would be a mindset for sexuality within capitalism, communism, socialism, especially in places where these systems have outgrown their values over religion.

What`s it in here ? Democracy ? we all know this isn`t working.
We choose governments but the politics pretty much rest the same. We are sexual capitalists. We eat sex and want the most of it possible, without care for those who don`t have it (I know it sounds like a stretch....). That`s what I`ve been refuting and why I`m such an engaged fellow about these issues.

It has nothing to do with my being horny or stuck up or not. I live in your world, I get pretty easily sexualized, the medias wants me to be (films, publicity, etc..). I`d be the first to fuck any truckdriver in a rest area if I didn`t hold to personal politics and beliefs (that make me prefer wanting to wait for a calm partner to spend mylife with gently, and other kitsch theory....).


Sometimes I lose faith, get desparate, and do
start singing song while doing........you know....


Cheers,

Ced

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
The thread was about sexual politics.

Actually, the thread was just a thread in which some people made some funny sexual comments which you then hijacked into sexual politics.

We eat sex and want the most of it possible, without care for those who don`t have it (I know it sounds like a stretch....). That`s what I`ve been refuting and why I`m such an engaged fellow about these issues.

You're being unclear. What are you refuting? Are you refuting that we 'eat sex and want the most of it possible'? Are you refuting that we have no care for those that don't have it?

Having sex for the vast majority IS A CHOICE. Some religions may try and regulate when and with whom you are or aren't to have it, but it is still your choice whether or not to follow such edits. Some people may have physical limitations for having sex. But all kinds of people are having sex, big, small, fat, thin, ugly, beautiful. It always surprises me how much sex bitchy, unfriendly people are getting. *giggle*

Would you like to clarify 'without care for those who don't have it'? It really is not my business if you are or aren't having sex, nor is it my job to ensure you get some. What am I supposed to do? Boo hoo, you can't get laid so I, being the good citizen I am, will lay you? Even if you don't find me attractive?

I`d be the first to fuck any truckdriver in a rest area if I didn`t hold to personal politics and beliefs (that make me prefer wanting to wait for a calm partner to spend mylife with gently, and other kitsch theory....).

You are welcome to do whatever you want. I think the issue people have is you present things like "everyone should be going for long-term relationships". There are all sorts of people, with all sorts of arrangements. I know a happy, stable trio. I know poly people in all sorts of stable contractual relationships. I also know married people who cheat and manipulative people who manipulate. People are people, and in general, problems have to do with people not recognizing what type of person they are are trying to force themselves into schemes not suited for them, a la the religioius 'monogomous marriage is what everyone should be in'.

That said, my personal ideal at the moment is finding a steady, long term lover. That doesn't mean I'm going to try and force everyone else into that box, nor does it mean that I'll turn down the chance to share sacred breath with another person just because it'll be short-term. Life is to short not to take the time to connect with other people.

Sometimes I lose faith, get desparate, and do
start singing song while doing........you know....

Lose faith in what? Desperate for what? And no, I don't know what you're doing. How does singing while "doing it" solve your faith and desperation issues?

[Musette]

<<I live in your world, I get pretty easily sexualized, the medias wants me to be (films, publicity, etc..). I`d be the first to fuck any truckdriver in a rest area if I didn`t hold to personal politics and beliefs (that make me prefer wanting to wait for a calm partner to spend mylife with gently, and other kitsch theory....). >>

Oh come on. An attitude like that is probably why you're having such trouble with sex.

(By the way - that truck driver would have to want you as well, you know.)

[Pale Clouded]

Sex? What is this 'sex" you speak of?

Perhaps maybe I have done this in a past life, no?

[Sentiment]

>>What are you refuting?

That we embrace sexual freedom When we have not yet reach a world where people actually care for each other, and the "sex freedom" we are talking about helped a few to gather (gay parades), but a lot, a great lot of separations, especially between men and women. The sex is wild but we`re all loners. The bed hugging is bare. I don`t think we need to regress from this sexual freedom we have atteined, but perhaps adjust some of the politics.

>>it is still your choice whether or not to follow such edits


But very hard topic about gender identity. We think we have choice here but I`m saying that society as it is built us to think the way we think. This fluctuates through times, they are strong factors influencing sex (economy, evolution of technology, for example). In any given society there are "common" values.


>>It always surprises me how much sex bitchy, unfriendly people >>are getting.

They`re good at it (sex is a talent), and they fuck with peoplès minds.

>>you can't get laid so I, being the good citizen I am, will lay >>you? Even if you don't find me attractive?

Exactly by doing what people hate doing. Pay respect and care towards people feelings. This is a very tough issue.
But yes...the moral hedonists would say
"hey you horny slut..you had your big part of the fun in life..now please would you go suck that elder man living alone next streets that no one ever wants to fuck". The Greeks already thought about such issues, but it was ridiculous so it was not really sustained. But greeks had a different way to perceive sex.
They were pretty wise about it.


>>People are people, and in general, problems have to do with >>people not recognizing what type of person they are


Cos they are no grounds to identify with. This will change, give it a 50 years max. I think this is transition. But there is the danger we are getting in the wrong lane. At least what is great is that queer politics really enhanced the exploration of persuasions.
More men and women adress and question nowaday their attractions toward each sex. We are getting "open" on some levels (at least our legs are). Politics have nothing to do with being free and able to explore, but more about formulating "consensus", what is not up to date, and need to be.
We have no common moral grounds, and we need them (and moral is far from being just sex, but it starts with sex..."sex politics"..).No moral ground =anarchy. Can we really face that ?


>>Lose faith in what?

I`ll never find a soul mate.


Cheers,

Ced

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Sentiment


>>Lose faith in what?

I`ll never find a soul mate.


Cheers,

Ced

Cedric, I feel the same way...join the club.....

[Sentiment]

>>But yes...the moral hedonists would say
>>"hey you horny slut..you had your big part of the fun in life

Hey...this is important:

Hedonists hate pity. The ideal is that.....
"Giving" pleasure becomes a pleasure.
Therefore you are simply more than glad and happy
to see someone having an orgasm, especially
if it`s been a while, etc....

Moral hedonism is simply godlike...
It asks for a lot of probity.

It`s the film Teorema by Pasolini.


Cheers,

Ced

(see... I`m along the tracks of Pasolini, another great sex babbler)

[andylama]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Cedric, I feel the same way...join the club.....

Mel,

I'm in the midst of my first "serious" relationship ever, and I'm still not sure I'd call us "soul mates". It's a complex thing for sure.

Anyway, sounds like you need some lovin'.

Don't forget that you're among caring friends here.

Be good to yourself and don't forget to BREATHE.

Andy

[Musette]

So what are you saying...that you want us to take up a collection or something?

Originally posted by Sentiment
>>But yes...the moral hedonists would say
>>"hey you horny slut..you had your big part of the fun in life

Hey...this is important:

Hedonists hate pity. The ideal is that.....
"Giving" pleasure becomes a pleasure.
Therefore you are simply more than glad and happy
to see someone having an orgasm, especially
if it`s been a while, etc....

Moral hedonism is simply godlike...
It asks for a lot of probity.

It`s the film Teorema by Pasolini.


Cheers,

Ced

(see... I`m along the tracks of Pasolini, another great sex babbler)

[Musette]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Cedric, I feel the same way...join the club.....

Awwww, Miss Mel - I did, and we're twins, so your soul mate can't be far away now.

[Musette]

<<Moral hedonism is simply godlike...
It asks for a lot of probity.>>

Well, it does sound kinky, when you put it like that....

[Kit]

Originally posted by Sentiment
>>What are you refuting?

That we embrace sexual freedom When we have not yet reach a world where people actually care for each other, and the "sex freedom" we are talking about helped a few to gather (gay parades), but a lot, a great lot of separations, especially between men and women. The sex is wild but we`re all loners. The bed hugging is bare. I don`t think we need to regress from this sexual freedom we have atteined, but perhaps adjust some of the politics.

Well, that's easy. 'Caring for each other' is not a requirment for being able to have sex with someone. They are do separate things that do go well together but don't have to.

But very hard topic about gender identity. We think we have choice here but I`m saying that society as it is built us to think the way we think. This fluctuates through times, they are strong factors influencing sex (economy, evolution of technology, for example). In any given society there are "common" values.

Society tries to give 'common values' but usually they come with a price tag of 'you have to do these values and be like this'. For people who aren't 'like this' they often form their own values and go their own way and question all those 'common values' society tries to sell, like monogomous marriage is the key to life.

Exactly by doing what people hate doing. Pay respect and care towards people feelings. This is a very tough issue.
But yes...the moral hedonists would say
"hey you horny slut..you had your big part of the fun in life..now please would you go suck that elder man living alone next streets that no one ever wants to fuck". The Greeks already thought about such issues, but it was ridiculous so it was not really sustained. But greeks had a different way to perceive sex.
They were pretty wise about it.

You've lost me here. I can pay respect and care twoards people's feelings wihtout having sex with them. You don't see me ranting against polyamourous people even though I'm not one and had a less-than-pleasing experience dating one ...


>>People are people, and in general, problems have to do with
>>people not recognizing what type of person they are

Cos they are no grounds to identify with. This will change, give it a 50 years max. I think this is transition. But there is the danger we are getting in the wrong lane. At least what is great is that queer politics really enhanced the exploration of persuasions.

More men and women adress and question nowaday their attractions toward each sex. We are getting "open" on some levels (at least our legs are). Politics have nothing to do with being free and able to explore, but more about formulating "consensus", what is not up to date, and need to be.
We have no common moral grounds, and we need them (and moral is far from being just sex, but it starts with sex..."sex politics"..).No moral ground =anarchy. Can we really face that ?

I don't think one needs a ground to identify with. If I'm trying to be monogomous with person after person and keep screwing it up because I love too many people, how hard is it to go, hmmm, this monogomy thing doesn't seem to work for me at this time? Then you can just tell people, hey, I'm not monogomous, if that's not what you want, don't be with me.

Of course, the real problem is too many people think they can change their lover into what they want, and they can't. A couple will make compromises as they grow together, but their basic nature isn't going to change. If their nature is that far off, you need to find someone else.

>>Lose faith in what?

I`ll never find a soul mate.

There's your problem right there. What makes you think there is such a thing as a soul mate? Suppose your soul mate is in Zimbabwe and you never go to Zimbabwe? Sucks for the both of you, now doesn't it?

I think there is a whole set of people very compatable with me all over the globe. Some I'll find, some I won't. As I grow and change, some of them will stop being compatable, and others will.

Being alone is not something I worry about. I have more than enough to do, and have made some wonderful friends. And if I need sex, I have people I can share that with as well. Or I can do yoga. :D

But the 'one true soul mate' idea is as bad as people who keep turning down partners who 'aren't good enough' when the only thing wrong with them is that they don't match some fantasy lover in the person's head. They ruin relationship after relationship chasing a ghost who will never materialize.

My personal soul mate would be a 6'4" Irish pagan redheaded dancer fluent in Irish Gaelic and some other Celtic languages who is madly in love with me. We'd choreograph amazing dances and be in a band and tour the world and go to drum and dance and happily ever after.

I'm not holding my breath, and enjoying life in the meantime. (-:

[Kit]

Ced, I just had a news flash. Maybe I'm you're soul mate and if you'd only said hi to me at the 'fest I'd be enrolled in beginning Czech and French. (-:

I'll check up on things later ... *hugz*

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Musette
Awwww, Miss Mel - I did, and we're twins, so your soul mate can't be far away now.

i hope your right hun...kiss1

oh yeah, andy too ...kiss1

[Sentiment]

>>I don't think one needs a ground to identify with.

Than you agree with Mr. P. Orridge whom I was discussing with last month of May. I`m balanced and uncertain. I agree that it`s best to free ourselves from identification but I`m not sure it`s easily feasible. Most people wouldn`t agree and find this sentance alienating. I mostly don`t have much ground to identify with. Cocteau music is one, but, illusory.


>But the 'one true soul mate' idea is as bad as people who keep >turning down partners who 'aren't good enough' when the only >thing wrong with them is that they don't match some fantasy >lover in the person's head.


I understand and agree. Personally I didn`t "break" with the relations I had, I mostly try to live day by day not thinking about anything. So hopefully I`m not too fresh about always looking for better, but I`ve been with many people who are like that.

Cheers,

Cedric

[Phil Lawton]

Cedric

All of this seems like a desperate, oblique cry for a shag.

Listen, get yourself over here to Birmingham. I know lots of women who (for a curry and a bottle of tequila) will give you more head than you can cope with.

Will - any gash women up your way that Cedric could expel some bodily fluids with?

Oh...do they need to be CT fans, Cedric, and do they previously have to have wept onto glass?

[Rad]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Cedric

All of this seems like a desperate, oblique cry for a shag.



I'm STILL on the prowl! But I haven't lost faith yet! No use in that heheh.

[Kit]

Originally posted by Radagast
I'm STILL on the prowl! But I haven't lost faith yet! No use in that heheh.

I seemed to have missed all the prowlers at the 'fest. Was I wearing the wrong deoderant, or did Diamanda's face scare everyone away?

Who was the cute guy with the Kate Bush, Red Shoes t-shirt on?

[REPLICESS]

Rad

If that's you in the avatar, i can't imagine you'd have any probs at all.

[Pale Clouded]

Maybe if I lost 30 pounds, let my hair grow and dyed it blone, I'd be hooked up.......*sigh*

[Kit]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Maybe if I lost 30 pounds, let my hair grow and dyed it blone, I'd be hooked up.......*sigh*

Um ... unless that's a new way you wish to express yourself, I'd say you're better off being yourself. I already tried the "be someone else" approach, and it wasn't very successful. It's a lot less energy to be me, anyway, so I've stopped trying to be someone else ...

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Kit
Um ... unless that's a new way you wish to express yourself, I'd say you're better off being yourself. I already tried the "be someone else" approach, and it wasn't very successful. It's a lot less energy to be me, anyway, so I've stopped trying to be someone else ...

nah my personality is too strong for me to try to be someone else, (and your right, it would take way too much energy) I just mean looking like someone else....

[Kit]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
nah my personality is too strong for me to try to be someone else, (and your right, it would take way too much energy) I just mean looking like someone else....

Well, have some fun with some wigs. (-: Maybe in our multi-day Cocteaufest 2004 we can have a masquerade ball. :D

[andylama]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Maybe if I lost 30 pounds, let my hair grow and dyed it blone, I'd be hooked up.......*sigh*

Not true. Unless, by "hooked up", you mean "played by creeps". Ack.

Mel, STOP THAT--just stop it. Yer being unfair to yerself (and those who might be secret or future admirers). Skinny & blonde is grossly overrated anyway.

I can only speak for my own tastes, but the loveliest and most desirable women I've ever known did not fit any of the "popular fascist beauty standards". Thank god.

Besides, I've seen your picture. You are lovely and exotic...so just quit the self-bashing, awright?

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by andylama
Not true. Unless, by "hooked up", you mean "played by creeps". Ack.

Mel, STOP THAT--just stop it. Yer being unfair to yerself (and those who might be secret or future admirers). Skinny & blonde is grossly overrated anyway.

I can only speak for my own tastes, but the loveliest and most desirable women I've ever known did not fit any of the "popular fascist beauty standards". Thank god.

Besides, I've seen your picture. You are lovely and exotic...so just quit the self-bashing, awright?

:tongue:

Andy I think we're gonna have to take this outside....in the mud..lol

[Musette]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
:tongue:

Andy I think we're gonna have to take this outside....in the mud..lol

See? There ya go!

That sort of thing always worked for me when *I* wanted attention......
:diva:

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Maybe if I lost 30 pounds, let my hair grow and dyed it blone, I'd be hooked up.......*sigh*

Just look at you. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't find a date if you wanted to.

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Just look at you. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't find a date if you wanted to.


I be tellin' the truth...I guess if you're not comfortable in your own skin, it shows. I need to work on that, but thank you.

Well hey Kook, I might be going to Vegas soon to visit a friend, maybe I can pick out a couple sugar daddies for the two of us...

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Musette
See? There ya go!

That sort of thing always worked for me when *I* wanted attention......
:diva:

Yeah especially because I’ll be wearing one of those sumo wrestling diapers! Whoo Hoo! What a sexy beast!…lol…now if I could only get Phil L. to wear one with me, and have the midget tape it.

[Musette]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Yeah especially because I’ll be wearing one of those sumo wrestling diapers! Whoo Hoo! What a sexy beast!…lol…now if I could only get Phil L. to wear one with me, and have the midget tape it.

Your self-deprecation is gonna be the death of me!

Mostly because you sound just like I do sometimes.

:(

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Musette
Your self-deprecation is gonna be the death of me!

Mostly because you sound just like I do sometimes.

:(

Hey hun I was only joking that time...:) really for honest I was

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
I’ll be wearing one of those sumo wrestling diapers! Whoo Hoo! What a sexy beast!…lol…now if I could only get Phil L. to wear one with me, and have the midget tape it.

Mel

You make it sound as if I don't already wear one on a daily basis.

[willy]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
You make it sound as if I don't already wear one on a daily basis.

Hey Phil, bit of an aside but the glass coffee table arrived from Barker & Stonehouse this afternoon. You bring the missus around? Say 7.30-ish? Should be a laugh.

And it'll make a change cos all the usual parties I go to, the women tend to look like Hugh Scully and the men like Bernie Eccleston.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Hey Phil, bit of an aside but the glass coffee table arrived from Barker & Stonehouse this afternoon. You bring the missus around? Say 7.30-ish? Should be a laugh.

And it'll make a change cos all the usual parties I go to, the women tend to look like Hugh Scully and the men like Bernie Eccleston.

No problem, mate. Is your other half providing tha Latex cat-suits this week or are we still making do with the hessian smocks?

[willy]

Ooh the hessian. And we've got you a little sackcloth 'goody bag' for you to wear over your 'little Charlie'.

Will your missus be bringing that contraption she calls Mr Thingy? Tell her to.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Ooh the hessian. And we've got you a little sackcloth 'goody bag' for you to wear over your 'little Charlie'.

Will your missus be bringing that contraption she calls Mr Thingy? Tell her to.

Thanks for the bag for my bag, Will.

Mrs Phil will, indeed, be bringing "Mr Thingy", although she hasn't quite cleaned out the axle-grease and parmesan from last time. Is that going to to present a problem?

Oh, that reminds me - could you ask your other half to make sure that the pasta sauce has cooled down a bit before she spreads it over "the area" this time? Although my burns were not quite as severe as the ones one your "dangler of danger", it took a shine off of the whole evening when we had to spend three hours in A&E afterwards.

[willy]

I wouldn't bother cleaning it cos it'll be just me this time. Mrs Willy is still 'a bit septic' - which I actually enjoy but she doesn't like how it stings her after I've been eating cheese and onion crisps.

[willy]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Cedric
All of this seems like a desperate, oblique cry for a shag.
Will - any gash women up your way that Cedric could expel some bodily fluids with?


No.

[andylama]

Originally posted by willy
Ooh the hessian. And we've got you a little sackcloth 'goody bag' for you to wear over your 'little Charlie'.

Will your missus be bringing that contraption she calls Mr Thingy? Tell her to.

HFS! The board's got another who can spar with Phil in his own idiom! Crikey! :clap:

Keep it up, you. This is entertaining stuff! :D

[andylama]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
...I guess if you're not comfortable in your own skin, it shows...

Actually Mel,

Having pontificated all my warm-n-fuzziness, I can relate to that statement quite well--I spent most of my youth being an awkward, self-conscious, fat nerd...lovable but FAR from desirable.

It wasn't until around the age of 30 that I learned to "get down with my bad self" (so to speak) and be OK with what I am...and what I'm NOT.

BTW, I'm still fat, but I'm done feeling gross about it.

"and dead sexy!" --Fat Bastard (in a sumo diaper)

:D

[lo-fi]

Just catching up on this thread , all ive got to say is that i love Cocteau Twins and i love sex :) bye for now :)

[Kit]

Originally posted by lo-fi
Just catching up on this thread , all ive got to say is that i love Cocteau Twins and i love sex :) bye for now :)

beautiful. :D

I love you guys ...

[iceblink555]

Originally posted by lo-fi
Just catching up on this thread , all ive got to say is that i love Cocteau Twins and i love sex :) bye for now :)

OK, but if you had to choose one or the other....

--Alan

[lo-fi]

Originally posted by iceblink555
OK, but if you had to choose one or the other....

--Alan


Thats a hard question - at the momoent i dont have sex everyday but i have to have CT everyday roflmao

[Baddy2shoos]

simple...have both at the same time roflmao but then again might put u off them!

[willy]

Originally posted by lo-fi
at the momoent i dont have sex everyday

Not even by yourself? Pull the other one!

but i have to have CT everyday roflmao

So anyone here had sex WITH a cocteau twin then? C'mon don't be shy... Phil? Guthers? Can't imagine anyone else...

[Baddy2shoos]

Originally posted by willy
Not even by yourself? Pull the other one!

u class that as sex?? lol

[willy]

No. But each to their own.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
So anyone here had sex WITH a cocteau twin then? C'mon don't be shy... Phil? Guthers? Can't imagine anyone else...

I can't recall sleeping with any of the band, but I did once consume a whole bottle of "Night Nurse" whilst on a business trip to Scotland, so anything could have happened.

Does "Night Nurse" normally make your three card trick sore?

[willy]

Well, after many a full bottle of Night Nurse, I've woken up with sore 'crown jewels' and with my pants unbuttoned. Not quite 'wet-arse-and-half-a-crown-under-your-pillow' but similar.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Well, after many a full bottle of Night Nurse, I've woken up with sore 'crown jewels' and with my pants unbuttoned. Not quite 'wet-arse-and-half-a-crown-under-your-pillow' but similar.

So does that mean that Liz may well have ravaged me as I lay under the influence of half a pint of cough linctus?

The animal. I feel so...so...dirty.

But it's a good dirty.

[willy]

Yeah, it's like the girlfriend hits me but she loves me really.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Yeah, it's like the girlfriend hits me but she loves me really.

Does he know who she's dealing with and of the power you wield?

[willy]

Yes, and she earns extra pocket money too.

[Rad]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Just look at you. I find it hard to believe that you couldn't find a date if you wanted to.

I think I know the answer to that problem. Guys are just simply intimidated by her good looks. I think so anyway. Serious Mel. They're most likely like "She's WAY out of my league". Well. That's what I'd think anyway :blush:

[Lucibelle]

Originally posted by Radagast
I think I know the answer to that problem. Guys are just simply intimidated by her good looks. I think so anyway.
I've seen this situation several times...sometimes intimidated by looks, sometimes by personality, sometimes by both. It's funny because you'll often hear models/movie/TV stars say they're not dating anyone because no one ASKS them. Weird.

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by Radagast
I think I know the answer to that problem. Guys are just simply intimidated by her good looks. I think so anyway. Serious Mel. They're most likely like "She's WAY out of my league". Well. That's what I'd think anyway :blush:

Good to see the payments I've been sending to the "buy a friend" program are well spent...

roflmao

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Good to see the payments I've been sending to the "buy a friend" program are well spent...

I haven't received my check yet, Mel.

[Pale Clouded]

Originally posted by kookaburra
I haven't received my check yet, Mel.

Kook I swear I sent that thing out to you?

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Pale Clouded
Kook I swear I sent that thing out to you?

Don't worry yourself over it. This one's on me.

[Pale Clouded]

Good Deal!

[ResetTwo]

can't resist asking after reading the other recent thread

yup for me

[mmmender]

i guess if you're bi then you'd have to vote yes to being gay....although i don't consider myself 'gay'....it's such a 'gay' word. ok, i'll shut up now.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by mmmender
...'gay'....it's such a 'gay' word.

Hence, my follow-up poll.

[dynamine]

nope...not a 'gay' Cocteau Twins fan.i have a few 'gay' friends too,but i love women too much.
;)

take care,
Ross

_________________________
"it seems i came to leave"

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by dynamine
i have a few 'gay' friends too...

How noble of you.

[dynamine]

Originally posted by kookaburra
How noble of you.
thanks

-Ross

_______________________
"it seems i came to leave"

[kookaburra]

Ross: I'm glad you can take my humor like a man!

[dynamine]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Ross: I'm glad you can take my humor like a man!
no problem!

take care,
Ross

______________________
"it seems i came to leave"

[willy]

Originally posted by Reset
yup for me

No.

I'm not averse to a bit of botty-slapping but that's another thing entirely.

[willy]

And why we can't we all just be. Whoever. Whatever. Wherever.

[REPLICESS]

I just fancy who I fancy ;)

[willy]

Originally posted by REPLICESS
I just fancy who I fancy ;)

Yeah I tried that once. Got fuck-all response too.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Yeah I tried that once. Got fuck-all response too.

I thought Koo Stark actually pressed charges, Will?

[willy]

Yeah well, we've all moved on since then. In fact I haven't stood naked in someone's garden for a year or so.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Yeah well, we've all moved on since then. In fact I haven't stood naked in someone's garden for a year or so.

No? Ah, well, don't despair, mate...I've found that these people are no more understanding and just as willing to and ready to call the police as they ever were.

[Jeek]

Count me in! I can also think of four other queer male CT fans off of the top of my head...

[willy]

Originally posted by gkjsooley
I can also think of four other queer male CT fans off of the top of my head...

Now you're becoming very cheeky!

[fredofla]

i REALLY hate the word "queer".....i think it's not only divisive and offensive, but hugely counter-productive to the 'cause for our human rights.

who ever chose to co-opt this dastardly word has stupidly forgotten that it is a recurrent trait of human nature to seek to exclude (or rid itself) of all things that may seem intrinsically threating due to labels that infer attitudes of "freakishness" or "queerness."

the word "queer" also has a very long history of low self-esteem.

it is perfectly "natural" to be gay, not "queer" or abnormal.

the word queer is often identified with aberation or illness.

i think the time has come to rethink this terrible choice for a label.

(....at least, to those of us who would prefer to express our greater commonalities with the hetero majority instead of obstinately overstating ad nauseum the obvious, alienating differences.....)


cheers.


FRED of LA

[dreemkill]

the kid who introduced me to the cocteau twins, someone i talk to only online (he lives in mass., i live in ny) is gay...

..tho i really hate putting demographics to music..... who cares if you're gay or straight?
does it justify something? strength in numbers? "wow! we have 10 gay people on this forum! we're doing ok!"

i guess i dont get it...unless you are looking for a date....but thats really the only instance i can think of in which it would really matter.

[dreemkill]

and i agree wth fredonfla...its one thing to "take back" a words meaning, but the word queer by definition is simply segregating yourselves further.

my grandmother uses the term "queer" to describe something which is out of place.

from websters: 1. At variance with what is usual or normal; differing in
some odd way from what is ordinary; odd; singular;
strange; whimsical; as, a queer story or act. `` A queer
look.'' --W. Irving.

2. To ridicule; to banter; to rally. [Slang]

3. To spoil the effect or success of, as by ridicule; to
throw a wet blanket on; to spoil. [Slang]

sorry, not a word i'd like to use to describe myself....

[fredofla]

thanks for voicing your support for an early retirement of the "queer" label, Dreemkill.

the definition of the word that you posted speaks for itself.

....especially in the 2nd and 3rd meanings as described.

why any struggling minority would elect to diminish themselves in this way is beyond comprehension.

imo, "queer" as in the same demeaning category as "nigger."

'nuff said.


FRED of LA
onlytoohappytosparkacontroversyeverynow&then.



Originally posted by dreemkill
and i agree wth fredonfla...its one thing to "take back" a words meaning, but the word queer by definition is simply segregating yourselves further.

my grandmother uses the term "queer" to describe something which is out of place.

from websters: 1. At variance with what is usual or normal; differing in
some odd way from what is ordinary; odd; singular;
strange; whimsical; as, a queer story or act. `` A queer
look.'' --W. Irving.

2. To ridicule; to banter; to rally. [Slang]

3. To spoil the effect or success of, as by ridicule; to
throw a wet blanket on; to spoil. [Slang]

sorry, not a word i'd like to use to describe myself....

[dannen]

interesting opinions.

although i tend to link the word 'queer' with being gay as well, i've never had the same negative attachments to it. i guees in my head it's had more of a positive quality than anything. to me a 'queer' was someone that basically was (sometimes over the top) fun and very outgoing and told society to fuck off if they didn't like homosexuality. it had a self assurance to it for gays that included being silly and teasing each other. maybe it's just because the first gays i was around tending to be pretty comfortable with themselves and used that word w/ each other in a fun way.

hmmm. guess it reminds us that although there is a general overall understanding regarding language we also have our personally defined meanings of words as well.

[fredofla]

if your definition of the "queer" attitude is correct, gays in America may be setting back their hopes for equal rights by a few hundred years.

....but you hit the nail right on the head, exactly.

the word "queer" promotes a built-in off-putting in-yer-face take-it-or-leave-it attitude that seems close to segregationist.

this attitude of general contempt will garner the movement very few alliances with those in power who happen to make or break the human rights laws for minorities in this culture.

and the "silly" thing doesn't help much either.

obviously, in a time when so much social progress is on the line, we should choose our labels with greater care.

it is far better to express a positive attitude of all that we have in common with the mainstream, than to erect only more barriers toward mutual understanding and cultural support.

funny how so often we can (unknowingly) be our own worst enemy.

it think this whole "queer thing" is a kind of residual effect from an earlier period that was defensive in the worst kind of way, as well as antagonistic and filled with a kind of self-loathing.

worst of all, her in the States, the media has gladly taken the word "queer" and decided to run with it.

and why not; "queer" is so much more tabloid and sensational (no matter the consequences of its many negative meanings.)

so, will they also be reviving the word "nigger" on the airwaves anytime soon?

....don't count on that ever happening.

now, here's a pride conscious minority that knows better, and wouldn't for a second stand for this kind of second class treatment by the media.


-FoLA







Originally posted by dannen

...to me a 'queer' was someone that basically.....told society to fuck off if they didn't like homosexuality. it had a self assurance to it for gays that included being silly and teasing each other.

[Jeek]

Originally posted by willy
Now you're becoming very cheeky!

Don't quite get your meaning there willy...

I have four other gay male friends that are big CT fans, and they don't post on this board...

[Jeek]

Oh, and on the queer thing, I like it because it's easier than constantly writing lesbian/bisexual/transgendered/transsexual/transvestite/gay.

I like the all-inclusiveness of the term...

I wish the UK term "bent" would come into wider use. It's to the point and less negative than "not straight."

[dannen]

i wholeheartedly agree completely w/ everything you mention Fred.

i guess the aspect of the stated "silly but positive" mindset i am willing to accept (although not being gay myself) is that although it does have aspects of potentially being overly defensive and driving off possible needed support, it's also a step (or more) closer to getting to where gays should be regarding social acceptance. sure, being a 'silly queer' isn't the ultimate goal to try and live up to but weighing that against the ideologies put forth in the fifties or sixties (and before) where publicly acknowledging your homosexuallity (or even tollerance for it) could get you pummeled and possibly killed (and yes unfortunately it still can but hopefully much less so), it's a step up.

all i mean is that gaining rights and acceptance is a progression for any oppressed group, regardless. sometimes two steps forward sometimes one step back.

we're on the same side regardless of the outlook on this specific facet.

[dannen]

Originally posted by gkjsooley
I wish the UK term "bent" would come into wider use. It's to the point and less negative than "not straight."

as per dictionary.com:

"v. bent, (bnt) bend·ing, bends
v. tr.
To bring (something) into a state of tension: bend a bow.

-To cause to assume a curved or angular shape: bend a piece of iron into a horseshoe.
-To force to assume a different direction or shape, according to one's own purpose.
-To misrepresent; distort: bend the truth.
-To cause to swerve from a straight line; deflect.
-To render submissive; subdue. "


hmmmm, doesn't sound much more productive.

[ResetTwo]

Heh, I was just curious how true the perception of CT being a 'gay' band is since I don't really know many CT fans. Not looking for pride or any dates :) And yeah, I was thinking of saying "not straight" in the poll but oh well...

About the word 'queer', I think it's fairly typical to 'take back' words of contempt in order to try to cope with the contempt, to lessen the impact the word has when it's used. And sometimes, it ends up becoming popular and people forget it was even meant to be derisive in the first place. Even 'gay' is rather contemptuous. From Websters:

1 joyous and lively; merry; happy; lighthearted
2 bright; brilliant [gay colors]
3 given to social life and pleasures [a gay life]
4 wanton; licentious [a gay dog]
5 homosexual

Haha, those examples really help don't they?

[REPLICESS]

well, I also coach gymnastics - so I'm very much 'bent' ! :D

[dannen]

Originally posted by REPLICESS
well, I also coach gymnastics - so I'm very much 'bent' ! :D

..and you always have very cool avitars.

;-)

[fredofla]

Originally posted by Reset


About the word 'queer', I think it's fairly typical to 'take back' words of contempt in order to try to cope with the contempt, to lessen the impact the word has when it's used. And sometimes, it ends up becoming popular and people forget it was even meant to be derisive in the first place.



....ah, but some of us will never forget.

i do think there are so many better things we might try to re-popularize than a word that was long-used by our many antagonists to demean and devalue us.

i'll say it again:

for me, "queer" is in the exact same category as "nigger."

and i sure don't see our African-American leadership rushing to "take back" that nasty epithet.

or maybe they find the advancement of their human rights to take some precedence over their need for silliness.


-FoLA

[dynamine]

Originally posted by fredofla
for me, "queer" is in the exact same category as "nigger."
-FoLA
or as ALOT of "gangsta" rappers say: "NIGGA".
ya know fred..no matter how or which way we look at
it,it's pretty sad.

"can't we all just get along",
Ross

[Rad]

Noticed how gays are now calling themselves queers in the same vein as blacks call themselves niggers? (Queer eye for the str8 guy)
Me not gay either. Another thing. I've never seen CT's music as "gay" either. I think more dancy type stuff as being gay really. (Or village people lol) Others may not agree. Like, about a month ago, one of my friends said "It's music for fags!"
But I'd prolly say "wimpy and pretentious"? LOL! No. But maybe wimpy (But so what! _I'M_ wimpy!)
Kinda reminds me. About CT being great sex music as well. I'm sorry to say. I'll have to agree with some other people as in, to me, CT is very NON-sexual music. Sorry. But that's just how I hear it. More 'mental' or 'spiritual' to my ears.

[Rad]

Funny you should put that smiley there BTS.

[willy]

Originally posted by gkjsooley
Don't quite get your meaning there willy...


Worry not - I was implying your previous post was charged with theatrical innuendo...

[i] I can also think of four other queer male CT fans off of the top of my head...[/B]

[willy]

I prefer the term "bright young things" anyway.

[noboybands]

I prefer the term 'gaymosexual' - and I'm happy to put my hand up as a gaymo Cocteau fan ...

As for good sex music - good god yes!

[Keara]

I had sex to Treasure hours after I bought it!! But it wasn't an "Ooooh, this music is so sexy, lets get it on!" type of thing, just a quick shag. I remember noticing the music while in the process of copulating though, and I must say, it was much more pleasant to listen to rather than the sound of my boyfriend grunting.
;)
But I can tell ya that Tim Buckley is great to have sex to!

[Synesthesia]

I like the term queer. It's all inclusive, but really I'd prefer no terms or labels at all as I hate them.

[willy]

Originally posted by Keara
But I can tell ya that Tim Buckley is great to have sex to!

Hang on, didn't he die in 1975?

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Hang on, didn't he die in 1975?

'72, wasn't it?

[Phil Lawton]

Just looked it up - you were correct, Will. June, 1975.

[Keara]

Originally posted by willy
Hang on, didn't he die in 1975?

Yeah, he overdosed after a gig. Tis sad. Are there actually any fans here then? :-) and has anyone got the album 'Sweet Surrender'?

[REPLICESS]

Much prefer Jeff's stuff, although I've heard some amazing Tim tracks :)

[noboybands]

Rad, i'm sorry, but how many gayers post on this site? why on earth should 'dance' music (a lot of which owes a lot to robin and simon) be associated with us gaymos?
i like dance music, but ostensibly, i'm an early 80's indie kid - with liz, robin and simon being my faves (in a fabber than fab, big gay al kinda way)
i agree with other posters that without these three *stars* i wouldn't have pulled through, and i thank them for that - and i have no gripe with you, Rad, but just as it's not right to categorise all CT fans as humourless mid to late 30 something goths, please don't categorise all gay men as into disco

(no two apples are the same)

[ScottL]

I'll toss in my opinion as i like the subject, not cuz I think it matters...

i find most(all?) stereotypes fail to hold across the board, I suspect they come about because of a pattern, ie, within specific local cultures the stereotype seems to hold up with high percentage, but don't but not generally for the greater population...I find male/female generalizations the most difficult because a broad range of biological factors which account for some but not all the differences, so it is easy to say men and women are different, they are indeed...but not jumping to 'All men/women are...'. When it comes down to individuals I find no better guide than intuition really...not to say I use it perfectly or that it serves me perfectly...just that it always seems better to toss the generalizations out the window and read the moment when interacting with other people directly, as each one is full of surprises if we look.

[Rad]

Originally posted by noboybands
R why on earth should 'dance' music (a lot of which owes a lot to robin and simon) be associated with us gaymos?
please don't categorise all gay men as into disco

(no two apples are the same)

Wasn't serious. I hate how humour is sometimes filtered on the net. Damn. I'm not stupid enough to REALLY believe that.

[Rad]

But stupid either way. I've already told one of the moderators that they can feel free to kick my ugly dumb ass off the forum if my stupidity gets any worse. So don't worry :D

[noboybands]

no worries Rad, i was a bit drunk and got one on me ;)

[willy]

Originally posted by noboybands
I prefer the term 'gaymosexual' - and I'm happy to put my hand up

Your enthusiasm is encouraged but control is needed.

[noboybands]

gosh!!

[willy]

Pardon me?

[kookaburra]

Fags are stupid.

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by kookaburra
Fags are stupid.

You're so right, Kook...I think the best advice anyone can be given is "Don't smoke your first one and you'll never be saddled with the burden of trying to give them up."

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
You're so right, Kook...I think the best advice anyone can be given is "Don't smoke your first one and you'll never be saddled with the burden of trying to give them up."

Thanks for helping me spread the word, Phil.

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by by the sea
phil not kook...

I still heard you.

OK, whatever. I'm going outside for a smoke.

[Phil Lawton]

B

I'm also a smoker...I was being obtuse.

[willy]

Fags. Booze. 'The other'.

[Phil Lawton]

Interesting idea.

What do you suggest we call it, B? "Nicotine Niche"? "The Roll-Your-Own Rest Room"? "Filter-tip Flop House"? "The Twenty Pack"?

[Baddy2shoos]

fag ash liz roflmao

[Phil Lawton]

"Pale Clouds"?

[willy]

Cico Puff *

* which ties in quite nicely you will agree

[Phil Lawton]

Originally posted by willy
Cico Puff *

* which ties in quite nicely you will agree

I'll make you pencil monitor for that gem, Will.

[willy]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I'll make you pencil monitor for that gem, Will.

I'll even warm the toilet seat for you.