To "THE" Or Not To "THE" - That Is "THE" Question!

[mmmender]

WARNING - YOU ARE ENTERING A VERY DANGEROUS THREAD. THIS IS mmmender's NUMBER 1 COCTEAU TWINS PET PEEVE. SHE WILL ARGUE THIS POINT UNTIL THE DAY SHE DIES, AND SHE MEANS IT. JUST REMEMBER, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!


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Cocteau Twins Pet Peeve #1

When people put the word "THE" in front of the band name. it's COCTEAU TWINS not THE COCTEAU TWINS. to refer to them in a sentence using "THE" in front of the name is one thing but this is especially annoying when you see it written that way in a magazine article (i give you "total guitar", may '96 as one example of many) or in a record shop filed under "COCTEAU TWINS, THE"......makes you want to go up to the shop owner and ask for where they keep "RADIOHEAD, THE"........."excuse me but would i find that under T for THE or under R for RADIOHEAD?"

i think it's the plural of the word "TWINS" that makes people feel compelled to add "THE" to front of the name......i dunno what it is but i find it annoying. will someone please shoot me now?

end of rant.

[Iwan]

I'm sure these peeves will soon be available in book-format in THE Pepper-Tree shop??

[zed]

.fully illustrated.

Z.

[Lucibelle]

BANG!!! :D

[Brett]

I'd go further. Have you noticed how most of the 'The' bands these days are shit?
The Strokes, The Thrills, The Darkness, The Music, The Hives, The Rapture.

Sorry if I just dissed your favourite new band

[fredofla]

i've use "the" in this context......but only with a small T.

and it's way different from saying "The Radiohead" (for example) since the word "twins" automatically begs for a "the" preceding it.

ah.....pardon me, i have sinned.

burp.

:)

[Lucibelle]

I agree Fred, and I've used 'the' in the same way. I guess we'd better start saying our Hail Mary's now, huh?

[mmmender]

ok.....ok......OK......you CAN use "THE" in front of the band name, but only in certain circumstances.....like when referring to something "of" the band, not the band themselves....and even if it is used under these conditions, it should NOT be capitalised!


should i leave now?

people are really beginning to notice how much I hate this, aren't they?

roflmao

[Lucibelle]

Leave?? :eek: Hell no!!! We are all sinners and come short of the grace of Cocteau Twins. ;)

[Tinspur]

Well, for grammatical reasons, "The" is necessary sometimes..... but I can understand your angst over it.

[Phil Lawton]

Could be worse...this could be a forum for the The The.

Played "Infected" yesterday for the first time in about a year - what a good album that is. Just a shame that the rest of Matt Johnson's material never really lived up to the same standards.

[Brett]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
Could be worse...this could be a forum for the The The.

Played "Infected" yesterday for the first time in about a year - what a good album that is. Just a shame that the rest of Matt Johnson's material never really lived up to the same standards.


I actually thought Dusk was the equal of Infected Phil. Come to think of it, I like everything except Naked Self. I don't have Hanky Panky or the unreleased stuff like Gun Sluts though. Maybe it's all too much of the same thing from Mind Bomb onwards? I really like him though. Pleased you like Infected.

The worst thing about The The is trying to find them in a search engine!

"Arabia
Arabia"

Prescient genius

[simon alexander]

Interesting point, Leesa, which, strangely, I was pondering myself this week, aware as I am of my own inconsistencies regarding les (?des) Cocteaux' nomenclature on these sacred boards. However, I can think of at least a couple of interviews (there are doubtless others) where all three band members perversely refer to the band as The (or the) Cocteau Twins, flying in the face of all the evidence of their clearely labelled records. Was there then a titular paradox at the heart of these mysterious Twins? An occulted war being waged between record company and band? In one of the aforesaid interviews, to make matters worse, Liz also refers to herself as 'a (!) Cocteau Twin', thus implying, presumably, 'one of that (definite) entity which is called The (the) Cocteau Twins', not to mention succumbing to the practice of, in, effect, referring to herself in the thrid person characteristic of politiclans and psychotics. All in all, it's a lexico-grammatical nightmare!

In the UK, (?the) Melody Maker rather self-consciously began referring to them as Cocteau Twins (sans article) some time in the 80s (having hitherto deployed said article up to that point), which made me wonder about some kind of diktat coming down from 4AD and/or the band themselves. Imagines . . .

LIZ (stamping foot): No, not THE Cocteau Twins!! It's never been THE Cocteau Twins. We're just Cocteau Twins, OK. We decided it all years ago, in a pub, in Grangemouth, after that, er, funny experience with Simple Minds we don't talk about anymore. (Blushes suddenly, stares straight ahead.) O my God! You've made me say it! We never really liked them, honestly. You've got to believe us. Now you've ruined everything! (Starts to wail) . . .
ROBIN: Now look how you've upset the wee lassie! Och aye, it's Cocteau Twins all right, don't ye get it? Was ganna be Cocteau Triplets for a while, but we got rid of Will Heggie, so we could be Twins again. Then we thought about binding ourselves together under a nice wee bit of Scottish tartan and becoming Siamese Twins, but Ivo told us not to be so silly. Something about 4AD being incestuous enough already . . .
SIMON (seizes journalist by the lapels). So it's Cocteau Twins, all right mister. Twins of Cocteau. Even though there are, er three of us. And don't you forget it.
JOURNALIST: (backing away nervously). W-w-w-hatever you say. C-c-cocteau Twins it is then. Never shall I let a surplus article pass these lips again. Cocteau Twins, yes siree, and nothing remotely definite about it. Now, about this new album, 'The Treasure'? . . .

[Iwan]

Originally posted by simon alexander
funny experience with Simple Minds

Surely you mean THE Simple Minds?? No? Oh... sorry... :blush:

[mmmender]

"This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end"

[simon alexander]

from those legendary visionaries of doom - Doors!

[mmmender]

maybe the song was actually called "end, the" ? :rolleyes:

[simon alexander]

Here's a quick teaser -how many CT songs have 'the' in the title?

[mmmender]

my initial reaction was to guess something like 5 songs.....boy was i off......i count 16

the spanglemaker
the hollow men
how to bring a blush to the snow
from the flagstones
suckling the mender
the tinderbox of a heart
the thinner the air
the ghost has no home
pitch the baby
the high monkey monk
in the gold dust rush
the itchy glowbo blow
mizake the mizan
throughout the dark months of april and may
wolf in the breast
frosty the snowman

[simon alexander]

frosty the snowman doesn't count!:tongue:

[simon alexander]

neither does 'in the bleak midwinter' (which might have been their next idea for a 'fun' Christmas single)

[mmmender]

frosty the snowman does count - and i'll be sure to play it for you at ctfest simon! :)

you asked "how many songs CONTAINED the word THE?" and you didn't specify just at the beginning of the song title!

:D :D :D

[Phil Lawton]

Pleased you like Infected.

Brett

I also have the video album of "Infected". It's a bit arty-farty in places, but very good. Have you seen it?

[someotherian]

indeed frosty does count!
can't let you have 'the ghost has no home' though.. ;)

Originally posted by simon alexander
to make matters worse, Liz also refers to herself as 'a (!) Cocteau Twin', thus implying, presumably, 'one of that (definite) entity which is called The (the) Cocteau Twins', not to mention succumbing to the practice of, in, effect, referring to herself in the thrid person characteristic of politiclans and psychotics. All in all, it's a lexico-grammatical nightmare!
here speaks the voice of experience :rolleyes: :)

oh and brett, i agree with you about many 'The' bands being crap. their choice of names certainly seems to reflect the 'lack of musical invention within'.. :)

[kookaburra]

Originally posted by simon alexander
...to make matters worse, Liz also refers to herself as 'a (!) Cocteau Twin', thus implying, presumably, 'one of that (definite) entity which is called The (the) Cocteau Twins'

'a' is the indefinite, the plural of which would be the null determiner: a Cocteau Twin < Cocteau Twins

[Phil Lawton]

can't let you have 'the ghost has no home' though..

(sharp intake of breath)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh..........Mo m, Leesa's just transgressed her own code of conduct and said that a track from 'Moon And The Melodies' was a Cocteau Twins track.......can I have her jam and bread as she's been so naughty? Can I? Can I, Mom? Can I have it? She has been naughty, Mom. Can I?

[Brett]

Originally posted by Phil Lawton


Brett

I also have the video album of "Infected". It's a bit arty-farty in places, but very good. Have you seen it?

I taped it off the TV years ago. Not bad. Very heavy handed metaphor on Slow Train To Dawn but still good.

I'd like to get it again as my mothballed copy in the garage was way before Nicam

[simon alexander]

Originally posted by mmmender
frosty the snowman does count - and i'll be sure to play it for you at ctfest simon! :)

you'll find me locked in the toilets with my head over the bowl if you do!:toilet:

[simon alexander]

Originally posted by kookaburra


'a' is the indefinite, the plural of which would be the null determiner: a Cocteau Twin < Cocteau Twins

I stand before you dejected, corrected and grammatologically shame-faced!

[Musette]

Originally posted by simon alexander
les (?des) Cocteaux' nomenclature

See, in this case, you'd have "the nomenclature des Cocteaux". And so, you could be using the definite *or* the indefinite article (right?? It's been a while).

I'm still not sure if you can get away with an article at all, however, even in French.

[iceblink555]

Originally posted by simon alexander


you'll find me locked in the toilets with my head over the bowl if you do!:toilet:

I won't be puking, but I might be in the next stall taking the opportunity to relieve myself.

It would be fine with me if neither Snow track was played, esp. considering it would mean cutting some other great CT stuff, given our time constraints.

--Alan

[mmmender]

i've gotta play winter wonderland while i skate around and toss snowflakes at all of you!

[iceblink555]

OK, I can accept that as a compromise :) If one of the Snow tracks *must* be played, I'd rather it be Winterland.

--Alan

[iceblink555]

errrr... Wonderland, or whatever it's called, lol

--Alan

[mmmender]

Sleigh bells ring
are you listening
in the lane
snow is glistening
A beautiful sight
we're happy tonight
walking in a winter wonderland

Gone away is the bluebird
here to stay is a new bird
He sings a love song
as we go along
walking in a winter wonderland

In the meadow we can build a snowman
Then pretend that he is Parson Brown
He'll say: Are you married?
we'll say: No man
But you can do the job
when you're in town

Later on
we'll conspire
as we dream by the fire
To face unafraid
the plans that we've made
walking in a winter wonderland

In the meadow we can build a snowman
and pretend that he's a circus clown
We'll have lots of fun with mister snowman
until the alligators knock him down

When it snows
ain't it thrilling
Though your nose gets a chilling
We'll frolic and play
the Eskimo way
walking in a winter wonderland

[iceblink555]

Just recited that from memory, did ya Leesa? Or did you copy and paste it from somewhere (I only suggest the latter possibility due to your recent typing difficulties, of course ;-) )

--Alan

[mmmender]

i've actually already got it in the lyrics section of my website!

[simon alexander]

now we've got the lyrics out of the way, hopefully we won't have to listen to the song:)

[iceblink555]

LOL.

Let's see... how does that other one go?

Frosty the snowman had a shiny shiny nose (errr... or was that Rudolph? :confused: )

--Alan

[zed]

..rudolph...........;) (can't fail!)

Z.

[TigerZ]

*Hears Dean Martin singing in those velvety Christmasy tones*

If there's ever a poll of songs that cheer the most people up, that'd surely come well up there...

[mmmender]

Virtually a year later........the subject is bumped to the surface again! :bump:
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since we've got more newbies around and i'm noticing the ever-menacing THE...........................it's thread resurface time!

[dynamine]

THE?
:confused:

you're not alone

[curetwins]

i agree 'the' before ct is annoying.. do you remeber when The Cure dropped 'the' during Wish for artistic purposes..

and hey i kinda like The Strokes.
:tongue:

[Brett]

The Strokes and The White Stripes are both shit. Sorry, but somebody has to tell it how it is.

[curetwins]

i disagree but.... i still like you;)

[dynamine]

you forgot "The Hives" bra!

and "the international noise conspiracy" bra!

are there any fans of "The Sigur Ros"???
i hear "The Coldplay" are good,is it true?

-the dynamine
the :headbang:er

[Avninder]

I'm thinking of "a" or one of The Smiths (or is it The Smiths's or even maybe The Smiths') song, "What Difference Does it Make?"

[iceblink555]

The The, anyone?

--Alan

[dynamine]

The The, anyone?

roflmao

[Brett]

Originally posted by curetwins
i disagree but.... i still like you;)

:blush: That's the way it should be curetwins. And ditto, BTW.


The Smiths, The Cure and The The are The only decent examples thus far. The Hives should be spit roasted alive for crimes against my sensory reception.

The Hives
The Vines
The Music
The Rapture
The Darkness (great fun but still shite)
The Strokes
The White Stripes

all awful

Notice how Interpol are not The Interpol
Case closed.:tongue:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by Avninder
I'm thinking of "a" or one of The Smiths (or is it The Smiths's or even maybe The Smiths') song, "What Difference Does it Make?"

the difference is that the band is not called The Cocteau Twins but instead just Cocteau Twins. for the same reason we don't say The Radiohead......it's just not what the band is called.

on that note......until very recently i actually thought the name of the band called Pixies was officially called The Pixies - til i realised they too have no the in front of their name.

let's just chalk it up to an annoyance.

[Ghosty]

Originally posted by mmmender
since we've got more newbies around and i'm noticing the ever-menacing THE...........................it's thread resurface time!

I'm actually one of those newbies and I'm affraid I use "the" all the time when talking about Cocteau Twins (but as you can see I'm catching on). However, to make things more complicated, in my language you could almost never use a plural without "the" in front of it. With a band name I suppose it would be alright but it would still sound silly. So I have to figure out a way of remembering to say "Cocteau Twins" in this forum while referring to them as "de Cocteau Twins" to friends and colleagues.
But in the end, who cares? As long as everybody knows what you're talking about. :lame:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by GhostFace
But in the end, who cares? As long as everybody knows what you're talking about. :lame:

yeah i never claimed that this commentary was gonna win me an award.....it really is just a pet peeve.

[Ghosty]

Who's that in your avatar, mmmender?:confused:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by GhostFace
Who's that in your avatar, mmmender?:confused:

mmme!

[Ghosty]

:smitten:

[mmmender]

awww shucks

:)

[Rad]

THE reason I can forgive this little mistake is prolly cuz I find it hard not to say it myself! Does anyone feel strange saying the band name without THE "the"? Personally I do.

How about LE Cocteau Twins? LA Cocteau Twins? DeCoctaeu Twins? :tongue:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by Radagast
Does anyone feel strange saying the band name without THE "the"? Personally I do.

nope. in fact i'd feel very odd saying their name with THE in front.

[iceblink555]

How about Les Cocteau Twins?

--Alan
np: My Essence (speedster remix)

[mmmender]

Originally posted by iceblink555
How about Les Cocteau Twins?

how about just COCTEAU TWINS - like it says on all of their records.

[dynamine]

except for "Speak No Evil",but that's a "Bootleg".Leesa,have you
ever seen other 'boots' that use "THE"?

:tongue:

[mmmender]

Originally posted by dynamine
except for "Speak No Evil",but that's a "Bootleg".Leesa,have you
ever seen other 'boots' that use "THE"?

off the top of my head i'd say no........but i have seen the added to their name in a number of magazine articles/interviews.......

http://www.cocteautwins.com/html/theband/band/1988_4.jpg

[mmmender]

there's always the horrific cocteau twins tribute album - which also seems to have added the to their name........

http://www.myportalhatesyou.com/images/DarkTreasures.jpg

[dynamine]

TRUE!
quite odd in a way...but i REALLY like the "headers" they use
too.

like="Gettin' Crazy with The Cocteaus"

'two sides of The Cocteau Twins'

right,i try to forget that gawd awful cover as well.

:rolleyes:

[mmmender]

yeah those magazine article titles can be amusing........

New Music Express "House of Fraser" [April 1986]
Alternative Press "Embracing Otherness" [Jan 1996]
Alternative Press "Etheral This, Thicky" [Feb 1994]
New Music Express "Why Mere Mortals Recoil" [Dec 1983]
Creem "Virtual Ethereality"
B-Side "Pulling Teeth: Shedding The Ethereal Legacy" [May 1996]
Volume 15 "The Band Who Are Definitely Not Spokespersons For A Generation"
Volume 17 "The Soundtrack To The Film In Your Head"
Raygun "Pearly-Prologue-Logues"
Mondo 2000 "Obscured By Words"
Total Guitar "The Cocteau Twins" [May 1996]
LA Times "At The Cocteau Cafe"

[dynamine]

Zig Zag-"TWOs COMPANY"(oct '83)
SPIN-"the cocteau twins in las vegas"(mar '91)
Option-"that which cannot be spoken,divining the heavenly
sound of Cocteau Twins"(may/june '87)

Zig Zag-"those hell-raising Cocteaus"(aug. '84)
High street Art-"Cocteau Twins nuture Colombus('85)
Vinyl-"Cocteau Twins-dying in a rose garden"(jan. '83)
(w/flexi stapled inside)

[ResetTwo]

Originally posted by mmmender
New Music Express "Why Mere Mortals Recoil" [Dec 1983]
Volume 15 "The Band Who Are Definitely Not Spokespersons For A Generation"

my favorite titles

[Symphony]

"A group whose distinctly ethereal and gossamer sound virtually defined the enigmatic image of their record label 4AD, the Cocteau Twins were founded in Grangemouth, Scotland in 1979. Taking their name from an obscure song from fellow Scots Simple Minds, the Cocteaus were originally formed by guitarist Robin Guthrie and bassist Will Heggie and later rounded out by Guthrie's girlfriend Elizabeth Fraser, an utterly unique performer whose swooping, operatic vocals relied less on any recognizable language than on the subjective sounds and textures of verbalized emotions."

From All Music Guide http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDSUB040401261100281013&sql=B8sn20roac48z

[Symphony]

no comments ((( :rant: )))

[jottke]

well what it really seems like the problem is, is that without "the" used as a definite article before the name, the grammatical implication is that there is an infinite amount of cocteau twins in the world... perhaps some kind of anomalous insemination disorder. . . but when it is used in certain contexts its function as a definite article limits the scope of its modification to the reason we are all members of this forum. . .

so it should not be, perhaps, a question of using that word or not, but whether it is capitalized to show its inclusion in the proper name or not capitalized (as in yr examples, Symphony). . .

but whatever, i agree with mmmender. why don't we all just use CT and problem solved. . .

another prime example i didn't see mentioned though i (admittedly) didn't read every post in this thread...

Cranes, not The Cranes.

the J

[mmmender]

6 MONTHS LATER AND THE INFAMOUS THREAD IS BUMPED AGAIN! :bump:
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ah jottke, THE voice of reason.

just bumping this thread for THE thackeray.

[ScottL]

I found this to be a similar point of contention for fans of Talking Heads. Funny also, their live album:
The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads.

hehe

[Rad]

With me I only use THE when I say name out loud. And I wonder if anyone's noticed Simon refer to them with a THE.

[willy]

Hey, what the, er, hey! I've always been known as The Willy 'round these parts.

[jottke]

Originally posted by mmmender
ah jottke, THE voice of reason.

oh i got more if you want it.

ex: forgivable use of definite article in relation to CT #2--

were one to say for instance, "the Cocteau Twins album Blue Bell Knoll. . .", the important thing to understand is that in this case, grammatically, Cocteau Twins, though a proper noun, is used as an adjectival phrase modifying the word "album"; therefore, the "the" as a definite article modifies the word "album" as well, not "Cocteau Twins." and "Blue Bell Knoll" is an appositive, a grammatically superfluous renaming of the previous noun phrase "the Cocteau Twins album". hence the use does not violate the integrity of the band's name.

however, one little orthographic mark changes the whole scenario. were one to say "the Cocteau Twins' album Head Over Heels," one would be intruding upon the name. For once the possessive apostrophe is added to the end of "Cocteau Twins", the "the" is no longer a modifier of the word "album" but the noun phrase "Cocteau Twins"; in other words, in the first instance, one may remove the adjectival and be left with the main noun phrase "the album", but in this second instance, the complete noun phrase is only reducible to the two phrases "the Cocteau Twins'" as a possessive adjectival and the noun "album". hence this type of use is unforgivable.

gradually, the question "to 'the' or not to 'the'?" becomes increasingly more complex than it would appear. . .

[ScottL]

Anything is complicated if we make it so.

I think it is pretty simple why you don't say THE before a band name...but not really very interesting either, I certainly would care if some one said it one way or another. It's just language, and if this bothers you, I think english is not the language for you, given how inconsistent it is.

[postlibyan]

ADMIN NOTE: THIS POST HAS BEEN COPIED OVER FROM ANOTHER THREAD AS IT IS HERE THAT BEGINS, YET AGAIN THE DREADED TOPIC OF WHETHER OR NOT TO "THE"

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:bump:


Only that I’d like to get a chance to come and play Atlanta, I’m currently performing a live soundtrack to one of my films “Galerie,” and it is the most enjoyable show to play. I’m just waiting for someone to book… wait -- really? i know some booking people. honest.

so i have never heard of this blog or "Taylor A Northern". i wonder who that is a per name for?

also, did you notice that he says, "the Cocteau Twins". for example:"First off, I worked with Harold Budd while in the Cocteau Twins. But after the Cocteau Twins broke up..."huh.

PJK

[andylama]

(time bomb ticking)

[mmmender]

wait -- really? i know some booking people. honest.

so i have never heard of this blog or "Taylor A Northern". i wonder who that is a per name for?

also, did you notice that he says, "the Cocteau Twins". for example:"First off, I worked with Harold Budd while in the Cocteau Twins. But after the Cocteau Twins broke up..."huh.

PJK
This is certainly not the first time I've read/heard both Simon & Robin refer to the band as 'THE' Cocteau Twins.

I hang my head in shame.

SHAME I TELL YOU!

Even in Simon's very first forum post located here (ihttp://www.cocteautwinsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2884&highlight=cocteau+twins#post2884), Simon says.......

......if any of you are bereft of new music and i guess you must be if you're all still listening to the cocteau twins, then my wee label has some highly fine artists.......

I could go on.......there are numerous examples but I'd only be digging my own grave.

[andylama]

Gotta stand for something, sister.

[frarn]

surely there is a subtle difference between "the Cocteu Twins" and "The Cocteau Twins"?

It sounds somewhat cumbersome to say

"First off, I worked with Harold Budd while in Cocteau Twins. But after Cocteau Twins broke up..."

and I suspect the inclusion of the definite article ["the"] is almost an involuntary act in normal speech.

Now if Robin had said (or if the writer had typed) "in The Cocteau Twins" with a capitalised definite article then mmmender would be in line to dish out a huge helping of "whoopass"!!

:D

[Dpressed]

Good point Frarn

[mmmender]

surely there is a subtle difference between "the Cocteu Twins" and "The Cocteau Twins"?

It sounds somewhat cumbersome to say

"First off, I worked with Harold Budd while in Cocteau Twins. But after Cocteau Twins broke up..."

and I suspect the inclusion of the definite article ["the"] is almost an involuntary act in normal speech.

Now if Robin had said (or if the writer had typed) "in The Cocteau Twins" with a capitalised definite article then mmmender would be in line to dish out a huge helping of "whoopass"!!



No, I'm sorry but you must be corrected. You can use the article "THE" in front of the band's name is it is referring something to the band......for example it would be correct to say.......

"Did you lose the Cocteau Twins DVD I gave you?"

.......because in this example the article "THE" is referring to the DVD and not the band.........just as in my example it wouldn't make sense to remove the article "THE" (again, which refers to the item, being the DVD) because the sentence would be incomplete and would sound like this.......

"Did you lose Cocteau Twins DVD I gave you?"

..........see? That makes no sense.....hence the reason why it's ok to use the article "THE" if you're referring to something of the band, etc. and not to the band as an entity.

Another example to show you how this sounds.....take the band Radiohead for example......

"Did you lose the Radiohead DVD I gave you?"

.........again, as shown above you're using the article "THE" to refer to the DVD and not to the band themselves.

You are, however correct in stating that it is indeed WRONG for any journalist (or band member, ahem) to write the article "THE" in front of the band's name and capitalising it.......such as to say........

"I love that band The Cocteau Twins" - WRONG!
"I love that band Cocteau Twins" - CORRECT!

Again, I'll use Radiohead as an example........

"I love that band The Radiohead" - WRONG!
"I love that band Radiohead" - CORRECT!

AND I CAN GO EVEN FURTHER AND USE AN EXAMPLE IN WHICH THE BAND THAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO APPEARS TO CONTAIN A PLURAL IN THEIR NAME BUT DOES NOT HAVE A "THE" IN FRONT OF IT.......

Perfect example is........

"I love that band The Talking Heads" - WRONG!
"I love that band Talking Heads" - CORRECT!

So, these are the factors EVERYONE needs to remember when deciding whether or not it is correct to use the article "THE" in front of any band's name, even if the name includes a plural!!!!!!!!!

Now, stick that in yer oven and bake it! :woo:

DON'T MAKE ME DIG OUT THE "TO 'THE' OR NOT TO 'THE' - THAT IS THE QUESTION" THREAD AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Too late.......to read the infamous thread all about "THE" just follow this link (http://www.cocteautwinsforums.com/showthread.php?t=2690).....which I've bumped for frarn this time! This has been a topic of repeated discussion on these forums since 2003, when that thread was first started, can you believe it keeps resurfacing again and again? When will it end?)

[mmmender]

:bump:

YET AGAIN BUMPING THIS THREAD.............AND I'VE MERGED IT WITH THE SAME TOPIC AS WAS BEING DISCUSSED IN ANOTHER THREAD.............WILL IT EVER END??????

roflmao


(http://www.cocteautwinsforums.com/showthread.php?t=2690)

[mmmender]

TAKE A LOOK AT THESE PICTURES AND TELL ME IF YOU SEE THE WORD "THE" IN FRONT OF THE BAND'S NAME ANYWHERE.........I THINK YOU'LL FIND THAT THE ANSWER IS "NO!"

http://www.cocteautwins.com/images/sleeve_treasure.jpg http://www.cocteautwins.com/images/sleeve_fourcalendarcafe.jpg http://www.cocteautwins.com/images/sleeve_bluebellknoll.jpg

DO I REALLY NEED TO CONTINUE????????????????????

:beathorse::beathorse::beathorse::beathorse:

[Dpressed]

Calm down dear ....

Although IMHO

'x went to see the Cocteau Twins in concert' (n.b. lower case the) sounds better than 'x went to see Cocteau Twins in concert' just as I'd say 'y went to see the Talking Heads' (again lower case the)

[mmmender]

More thoughts off the top of my (now aching) head......

Wonder why the official band's website url is NOT like this.........

www.thecocteautwins.com


Hmmmmmmmm???????????????????????????????????????

[mmmender]

Calm down dear ....

Although IMHO

'x went to see the Cocteau Twins in concert' (n.b. lower case the) sounds better than 'x went to see Cocteau Twins in concert' just as I'd say 'y went to see the Talking Heads' (again lower case the)
Well, if you were to say that........you'd be incorrect.
The band's name does not contain a "THE" in front of it.........

"I went to see Cocteau Twins in concert"
"I went to see Talking Heads perform live"

There's nothing wrong with the above sentences, they're perfectly fine - WITHOUT THE "THE"!

[Dpressed]

The name of the band is Cocteau Twins ... but in some sentences 'the' just sounds right ..... that's all

[mmmender]

The name of the band is Cocteau Twins ... but in some sentences 'the' just sounds right ..... that's all
Maybe to some it does sound right, but it's still incorrect.

[Dpressed]

I refer you back to Frarn's post #83

& if one uses Cocteaus rather than CT 'the doesn't come into it

[mmmender]

Well......as far as I know there was only ever one Jean Cocteau......(nor did he have a twin.)

He passed away (October 11, 1963) long before we developed cloning.

However, I do know of a band whose name, lineage traced, derived directly from his surname.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Jean_Cocteau.jpg






http://www.internationalpen.org.uk/images/SourceImage/Free_The_word_400w.gif

[frarn]

my, oh my, what have I done????? :D

I wasn't saying that it was right or wrong, just that personally I can understand why, in general speech, someone may "inadvertently" [note the quotes] use the "the" word because it feels more comfortable in everyday speech so to do.

I wasn't saying it was correct to do so, just that it happens.

can I just point out I wasn't trying to start an argument, but then again perhaps I should just keep my big mouth shut? ;)

I'll defer to Lee, I agree that it is incorrect to to refer to The Cocteau Twins, but personally, I won't lose sleep if someone does it in my prescence ....

[Dpressed]

:sorry: ... just in an arguementive mood atm ..... :sulk:

[mmmender]

Don't worry, no one has upset me. I apologise but I'm perhaps a tad over zealous when it comes to this particular subject.

I enjoy a good debate!

[Daphne]

this is quite an amusing thread

[frarn]

amusing????

tell you what is amusing - how about if we ban all groups in the world EVER from using the word the in their name .....

there would be one band without a name ......

can you guess which band????
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v
v

The The!

:D

or as they are known to us Yorkshiremen (specially for Red Star) .....


t' t'

[garp]

Now the title of the song is 'Suckling the mender', so should we be refering to you as The mmmender.http://www.britishspanking.com/forums/images/smilies/bolt.gif










*has she left for Ireland yet? If she is still in town I fear I am a dead man*:)

[postlibyan]

oh no! what have i started.....

sorry all! i was just trying to point out Robin's typos....

PJK

[mike_mhg]

I'm sure The U2 don't have this problem.

[Dpressed]

amusing????
:D

or as they are known to us Yorkshiremen (specially for Red Star) .....


t' t'

But as Clarkeson pointed out on Top Gear the t in t' is virtually silent ... so it would be

' '

[frarn]

Now the title of the song is 'Suckling the mender', so should we be refering to you as The mmmender.http://www.britishspanking.com/forums/images/smilies/bolt.gif


I don't think so .....




*has she left for Ireland yet? If she is still in town I fear I am a dead man*:)

I DO think so ....

[djproject]

wow ... i didn't offer my opinion on this

basically i'm with mmmender. you should respect the band name as presented as is according to official output from the band especially if it's a release but also if it can be traced to an official website or a profile at the many music/social networking sites (ilike, facebook, myspace, etc.). so if they use "the", you should use it. if they don't, then don't.

for myself i have a similar yet opposite problem where people like to *omit* the "the" in the band name. this appears to happen more with informal conversation rather than from reviews or magazines. but even so, it's annoying. and why i perceive it to be annoying is it tells me you don't care enough to give proper respect and courtesy to call it what i call it. i call it "the spangle maker" for a reason and not just for the nod to cocteau twins. aesthetically it looks and sounds better. of course it can also sound pretentious as hell since "the" carries a connotation of being definitive and absolute (i.e. i am *the* spangle maker) and therefore acting like prick. but if it really bothered it, i would have chosen something else

in that last paragraph, i could have said "the cocteau twins nod" and i would have been justified in doing so. however i try to respect the name as much as possible (especially since i know certain members' certain pet peeves =] ). but it does create interesting dilemmas in terms of syntax. for bands without a "the", the problem is creating prepositional phrases to avoid implying a phantom "the". but for bands with a "the" (like my project), you end up creating prepositional phrases by default, which can get very ugly quickly and easily. one workaround i try to do is to use the abbreviation if i know what i write and/or say will result in nested prepositional phrases.

i want to add that smashing pumpkins presents an unusual problem because it *has* been used both ways. from gish to siamese dream it was just "smashing pumpkins". from mellon collie and the infinite sadness to machina it was "the smashing pumpkins". now with this latest reincarnation, it's back to "smashing pumpkins". personally i've gone back and forth but currently and for the longest time, i've referred to them as "smashing pumpkins" as it appears in my own i-djproject.

i don't think i've missed anything here =]