FAO Simon R - historical sensitivity and the CT fan [Archive]

Phil Lawton

Sep-23-02, 9:47 AM

OCT 24/03 - THREAD PULLED FROM ARCHIVESORIGINAL THREAD DATE: SEPT 23/02

Simon

Anyone who frequents the .com board knows that I indulge in a rant every now and then. I put it down to fluctuating thyroid activity and the additives in Nescafe, but there are others who'll tell you differently. Please read this - I know that you were slightly miffed at some of the line of questioning last week when you showed your head above the parapet - let me attempt to paint a little background for you....

This board exists for one reason and that is the dramatic effect that the music of the Cocteau Twins had (and continues to have) on normal (and abnormal) folk around the world. Now, you may well say "For Christs's sake, don't be silly", but there's not a man, woman, child or beast (hi, Rob) here who would disagree.

Did you ever see "Close Encounter Of The Third Kind"? You know the scene where Richard Dreyfuss and the blonde have been apprehended on Devil's Peak and are all sitting waiting in the helicopter? Francois Truffaut is trying to explain that these people have been touched by something that they can't explain and that they belong there? Well this site, my friend, is the CT fans' Devil's Peak. We sort of know why we're here and know we have to come for some reason. It's a mark of how deeply the music touches the people who buy it, whether you, Robin and Liz set out to do that or not.

The analogy goes deeper than that, Simon; at least Dreyfuss' character gets to see the end scene. With the much discussed, almost mythical, unfinished album still lurking in the shadows, the fandom still has one last piece of the unknown to cling to. ( I should do the "Close Encounters" hand signs here, but I always end up doing a dog shadow-puppet)

In one of my more impassioned rants on the .com site, I urged any of the three of you to come out and simply say "Yes" or "no" to the question of the unfinished album being released. My own feeling is that, the longer it goes unreleased the less likely it is to see the light of day. While this goes unanswered, you (and I do mean YOU) will always be leapt upon whenever you show your face here and subjected to the usual questions about Robin, Liz, touring and the aforementioned unfinished stuff.

Don't get me wrong - this is not a stealthy rephrasing of the same line of questioning. This is just an explanation of the out-pouring of emotion from some contributors here last week. When Leesa told me that you were a member of the site, my first thought was "The poor sod's about to get buried under the avalanche" and, verily, you were, but understandably, from my point of view.

This is also NOT an attempt to paint you into a corner and get the definitive answer out of you. I think everyone here respects the fact that the three of you have moved on (although we're still a bit unclear as to where exactly Liz has moved on to, other than the freezer section of Wal-Mart) and that CT is a major part of your histories, rather than your futures.

I have no need to massage your ego, Simon, so please understand that this is all sincerely intended to explain where your fans are coming from. I had intended this to be far more verbose and articulate, with maybe some dancing, even, but I always put too much emphasis on the entrechat and that would have spoiled everything.

All of this reminds me...I must buy your album. You haven't got a spare, autographed copy kicking about, have you? (JEST, JEST, I JEST, for I am a jester)

Stay cool, but do not freeze.

jana

Sep-23-02, 11:00 AM

extremely well said phil.
in a nutshell....it comes with the territory.

watchlar

Sep-23-02, 1:59 PM

HERE HERE!

:)
Watchy

Lucibelle

Sep-23-02, 2:18 PM

I think that Simon is a real sport for even showing his face here! I mean, he could read every post on every thread and just keep all of his opinions to himself. Instead he has offered himself, undoubtedly knowing what kind of abuses he may be in for. Put yourself in his shoes. Go back 5, 10, (fiftyfold?) years ago in your life. Now put yourself in a situation where whenever you talk to ANYONE, all they want to talk about is that time. I imagine it would get real old, real fast, and you would probably find yourself trying to change the subject a whole lot. "...yeah, those were fun times, but here's what I'm doing NOW..." There's TONS of fan sites out there where the artist(s) being admired NEVER show themselves. I just think that it was cool as hell to be able to personally ask him anything, much less get a reply. The Cocteau Twins gave us all something so special that we've found the desire to gather here because of it. They have been our inspiration and influenced us in our own artistic ventures (ScottL, Curetwins, me...others I've yet to hear...).

Simon has already given his life to our entertainment. He doesn't owe us anything. If he never showed his face here again, it would be more than fair. I'm sure that many of use are hoping that he does come back, but chasing after the man will probably only bring about the natural instinct to run. We're all hoping that the Cocteaus will one day bless us with a final offering, but what I've had to come to terms to is that we already have it. I hope that they would accept this web site as the most sincere form of flattery that we have to offer. I've gotten a very special chance to talk with Simon on this site. That is mine to cherish. He is no different from any of us. He's just done different things. Now he has to deal with his life beyond Cocteau Twins. We all know how hard that is for us, imagine what it must be like for him! The truth is, no matter what we imagine, we'll never truly know. Not even if Simon himself spelled out his entire life story for us on this site. He's already told us that there were tremendous highs AND lows involved with being in the band. He seems content with where his life is these days. He's now using his experience to give other bands a chance. Maybe one day he'll be helping a band who's member belongs to this site. I'd say he's STILL giving his life to our entertainment.

Perhaps he'll enlighten us with more 'tales of the Twins'. If he does, I'm grateful. If he doesn't, I'm grateful.

DEANCOCTEAU

Sep-23-02, 2:58 PM

Lucibelle,
that was stated beautifully. I share your sentiments and I equally
agree with Phil's comments. I can't say anything as eloquently as either of you but I would just say the following. I think most celebrities; Pop Stars;
Rock gods or whatever , would probably give little of their time to the 'fans' .
However, I think it says an awful lot for Simon that he HAS given of himself to speak on this site. I hope he continues to do so but I suspect he probably just wants to drop in and out as he feels - just the same way we all drop in and out with our comments WHEN WE FEEL LIKE IT. NO PRESSURE !

DEAN.

watchlar

Sep-23-02, 3:15 PM

Originally posted by Lucibelle

Simon has already given his life to our entertainment. He doesn't owe us anything.

So True Luci...so true...but we can still mess with him though...right? :p

Watchy

someotherian

Sep-23-02, 3:37 PM

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I had intended this to be far more verbose
what phil, even more verbose? ;)

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 1:00 AM

.but we can still mess with him though...right?

Only if there's Crisco involved! :D

simon raymonde

Sep-24-02, 5:57 AM

firstly, ' a bit miffed ' ? i do mostly have my tongue deeply embedded in my cheek when i am here, knowing that the 'fan-artist' relationship (esp with CT historically) can be quite erratic!

i expect nothing from you and popped in here out of courtesy to leesa who asked me to. I found it quite a pleasant, intelligent and amusing trip, so I pop back. I read all the negative and positive posts and can step back and feel detached from it all and not feel personally involved in many of the topics, so don't worry about me.
carry on the rants at will, no holding back.

as far as the lost/last album goes, no-one asked me about it so i never mentioned it....all you have to do is ask.
No, I can't really see how any of those songs could ever be released, fascinating though some of them are in the half-dressed stages they remain.
It would not be fair for any one of us to work on these songs without the full backing of the other. Things have been weird enough between members at various times, without creating more shit to deal with. And it would require an enormous amount of work, conversations and energy to get anything like that underway and i cannot speak for anyone else in the band, but i don't even have enough time to do about half of things i want to do at the moment so this kind of project would not make life any easier. i think what with all the eps and albums we left a fair legacy behind of decent stuff, and whether we all agree on what was good and bad about certain albums, when a record was finished it did signal some kind of 'agreement' that that recording time was OVER. I cannot really see that happening with the stuff that was left behind. To describe the kind of things we were working on: Everyone was working on their own to start with and then we came to together to put things on each others stuff...Liz wanted to be more hands-on with the music and was working on sampling things from old vinyls and tapes etc and getting into the computer programmes etc which i thought was brilliantly adventurous of her as she had always shied away from any composition ideas apart from her amzing voice arrangements of course . She came up with some stunningly good melodies and vocal sketches over a couple of sample pieces, but they were never really close to being finished. Robin worked on some lovely chord progressions with guitars and keyboards and a few pieces were close to completion. I had quite a few bits and pieces that were only a day or so away from being finished, but Liz had either done loads of verses and no choruses, or the other way round, so again it is v difficult to see how one could ever go back to these tracks and finish them.

That's about it then....the phone is ringing now...see you

zed

Sep-24-02, 6:09 AM

Thanks Simon.....

nice over view of he "last one" as it were.

it's in much clearer context now.

have a day of it...

Z.

Phil Lawton

Sep-24-02, 6:23 AM

Simon

Thanks for that, mate. I don't think I've ever seen such detailed commentary on the unfinished album before and it's as refreshing as it is unprecedented.

My main thrust in the long post may have been lost (no surprise there). What I was driving at was that until any of the three of you came out and said "look, stop hoping, it ain't gonna happen", then there'd always be that tinge of expectation, even though I think we all knew that to be the case anyhow.

As I briefly mentioned to you a while back in a mail, I think that a CT reunion would be a huge mistake.

Oh, and finally, mate "a..legacy..of fairly decent stuff"? Fairly decent?

Behave.

Thanks again, Simon.

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 1:34 PM

Simon, you're one of the good ones, man! I often find myself wondering what must be going through your head as you read some of this stuff, but like I said before, one just cannot. Thanks for letting us know... again!;)

mmmender

Sep-24-02, 1:56 PM

Originally posted by simon raymonde
we left a fair legacy behind of decent stuff
"decent" just doesn't do it justice m'dear. do you think we'd all be hanging out on this forum of a now-defunct band if we only thought it "decent"? surely you jest!

DEANCOCTEAU

Sep-24-02, 2:33 PM

Phil,
I am curious to know why you think a CT Reunion would be a mistake !
Don't get me wrong, I am not looking for an arguement;I just wonder why you think that would be the case. Its obviously a hypothetical question as Simon's remarks suggest the unlikeliehood of such a thing. I have often thought that (whilst the fab four were all still alive) a Beatles reunion would have been a big mistake because the "expectation" could probably not be lived up to. Much of the Beatles best work could not be best reproduced in a live setting, and would the fragile friendships stay the course. It would have been undoubteably a " financial" success but critically it could well have disappointed. Free As A Bird didn't exactly thrill.
However, I think because the CT had played their best material in a live situation and because they were never " in fashion" they will not have dated and their sound could not be slated as being " very 80's or 90's ". Also their main fan base still exists. As I said just a thought . I would appreciate your thoughts (and everyone else) on the subject.

Dean.

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 2:51 PM

I still have hope. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but someday, perhaps? (hey, you have your fantasies involving a BMW, a stable and some peanut butter, I'll have mine of a CT reunion! ;)) To me, a CT reunion in which only the old tunes were revisited, would definately be a mistake. Kind of a 'been there, done that'. For me, if they ever did get back together, even if just for a short while, I'd like to hear some new songs. So I guess if they ever got back together for anything, I'd like to see a continuation rather than a mere trip down memory lane. Though I know that this will most likely never be, I learned a long time ago never to say 'never'. Not to put any pressure towards Simon or anyone else, you just never know what the future holds. They may find later on that a reunion of sorts suits them, or they may not. They may totally agree that a reunion is a bad idea, or may find a way to go about it that not only suits them, but surprises everyone. Simon's already told us that it's unlikely, but the question did make me wonder as to how it could be a mistake as opposed to how it could be a success. I'm curious to hear Phil's answer.

mmmender

Sep-24-02, 4:31 PM

Originally posted by by the sea
cherry coloured tishbites to all the sensitive boys on this site
uh.......what? so the women here aren't sensitive? try touching my nipples, i'll show you sensitive!!!!!! :D

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 4:36 PM

Oooooh! Meeeeee! MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

zed

Sep-24-02, 7:10 PM

ummmmm....

aahuhh.

welllll...............

ahem.

right.

oh, bloody nevermind.

z.(exists kicking dog...)

simon raymonde

Sep-24-02, 7:23 PM

lucibelle is certainly correct in the never say never theory. i have been firmly camped in the shoot-me-if-i-ever-agree-to-that-idea tent but maybe even I have mellowed a bit over the years.

i can't see how or why it would be appealing right now, but i do have to agree that we were beginning to become vaguely exciting live on that last tour and while some of the last (official )recordings were a bit all over the place, in the theatres we were becoming a bit more adept at giving everyone something without feeling cheap and compromised. Instead of standing there like frightened sheep, we realised that to make the set enjoyable for ourselves meant that we could play it with some joy in our hearts rather than with jelly.

but then again, the thought of playing Pearly dewdrops' drops one more time, does fill me with vast clouds of heavy dread even now. An American girl called Lindsay just started in our office doing some work experience and asked to see some CT videos....i had to draw the line at Pearly Dewdrops' Drops tho' !Evangeline and Tishbite vids were actually not too hideous which was a shock. Iceblink Luck was ok, and reminded me what a killer track that was. How was that not number one all over the place ?( ''because no-one could understand a fookin word the girl was wittering on about, you eejiot!'' Oh yeah right. Sorry.)

It won't happen, but I have been known to be wrong.

mmmender

Sep-24-02, 7:36 PM

speaking of videos......

i think that the worst cocteau vid had to be 'pearly'....seriously fucked up.....let's have 'em all walk about a cathedral in big heavy coats! who's brill idea was that, then?

i do enjoy the bluebeard vid, liz has one wicked hairdo in that video. although i remember simon telling me about the bit at the end where liz snuggles up in a shell.....and how he thought it was a bad idea....i couldn't agree more....a totally displaced image!

zed

Sep-24-02, 7:43 PM

you know....i always wondered who's idea that was....just stuck out like a sore thumb. not a BAD image.... just not there...

loved the hair though!

z.

TigerZ

Sep-24-02, 7:53 PM

Originally posted by simon raymonde

Iceblink Luck was ok, and reminded me what a killer track that was. How was that not number one all over the place ?( ''because no-one could understand a fookin word the girl was wittering on about, you eejiot!'' Oh yeah right. Sorry.)

OK, I'm new to CT...blame hearing Massive Attack's Teardrop on a Sept 11 commemoration sometime in August..so I've got a slightly different perspective than most here. Anyway here's a thought which will make you lots of money! Release a greatest hits track where Liz sings the words CLEARLY...I'm honestly not taking the you-know-what...anyway if you don't, Louis Walsh and Pete Waterman will get there before you :eek: Listening to CT songs for the first few times (the 1982-1990 collection) I'm struck by how good some of the songs are..and would LOVE to sing along to some of them but...AARRGGHH!...what the heck is she singing??...and yes I DO like her voice...but if you can't get her back....
*Goes and hides before he's slaughtered by the gang...* :p

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 8:01 PM

I hate to say it, but there have been a lot of CT videos that I haven't seen. :eek: I'm afraid I don't subscribe to cable television and, therefore, miss out on much. Of course, I could see them if SOMEONE would release them! (>ahem<:rolleyes: ) But it's my fault for not subsribing to the world's biggest timerobber. Instead, I have DSL!:D Now I can waste time in front of THIS colorful screen, talking to YOU wonderful people!!!

Yeah, Simon. My current project is something that was 'never' going to happen (from just 3 years ago), so watch out! The universe is listening! Oh yeah, it's a 'temporary' project, too. Well, actually, that's all I really want it to be, either. But you know, nothing happens if the timing isn't right. At least that's been my experience. So who knows? Fate does some strange, fucked up things, THAT'S for sure! But somehow I have this strange, sneaky supsicion that anything that ANY of you three release is going to be snatched up like candy bars at a fat camp, so it's ok!;)

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 8:05 PM

I'm struck by how good some of the songs are..and would LOVE to sing along to some of them but...AARRGGHH!...what the heck is she singing??

Ummmmm..........
Who wants to handle this one. I honestly don't know how to put it.

simon raymonde

Sep-24-02, 8:51 PM

TigerZ

some people think the same as you. Why sing something that no-one can understand? Why not just sing some old bollocks that all of us can lalalala along to and we'd all be happier right? You'd be more popular cos the radio folk would play it, the fans would be happier cos they wouln't have to guess them all, right?

Not for me. Liz sang plenty of decipherable lyrics, like poetry it is. She has the most unusual phrasing of any singer , and this is what can cause this theory that she's singing gibberish. MOre oftern than not, she's .....um ....not.
Yes there were times when she did not want to be understood, quoted, analysed, studied etc and her way of dealing with that was to use words as play, as new language, to create with sound, to start from scratch, new slate etc...funnily enough it had the reverse effect and more people than ever wanted to know what she was singing!

That was only a brief period, and it irks me somewhat that CT will mostly be remembered as a band with a singer who just made noises. Garlands, all words, Head Over Heels, all words, Treasure, some sound experiments here. Harold Budd, bits of both. Victorialand, bits of both, Blue Bell Knoll, alot of foreign words, alot of cut and paste, Heaven or Las Vegas, mostly all songs with words, FCC, all words, and Milk and Kisses, half and half again.

i figure if you are waiting for the remix album, you may be better off with The Cranberries, The Sundays, these bands are in same spectrum but use more obvious colours. I think you'll like them. I am serious. Waterman and Walsh? Who are they? do you mean the Popstars bloke? Man he would think this music was unworkable!

mmmender

Sep-24-02, 9:01 PM

i think to be fair to tigerz he seems to have a bit less experience with cocteaus music and therefore may have a more difficult time deciphering the lyrics. to the unfamiliar ear cocteau twins may sound like gibberish.

i know that only after listening to cocteaus music for several years do you then begin to recognize certain phrases and words and have more of an understanding of how liz says things. this coupled with reading and hearing interviews you begin to understand her themes a bit more. also, she repeats many words in her songs, allowing us to put together a puzzle of sorts. eventually when you see (or hear in this case) those puzzle pieces repeatedly, they begin to fit together to show a bigger picture. even if some of the words are distorted or foreign, you still gain an understanding of the message she's trying to convey by not what she sings but how she sings it!

what i'm trying to say is - if you listen closely tigerz, and perhaps read along at some of the lyrical interpretations (cos that's exactly what they are interpretations) things may become a whole lot clearer for you. and even if they don't - does it really matter? again, it's the entire sound you have to listen to as a whole, a sound offered up by all members, not just liz ....the lyrics are only a small part of the magic that was and remains cocteau twins.

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 9:32 PM

Thank you to both! Tiger and I had a good laugh back and forth at the PMs about this post. We were both curious as to the responses it would bring. Both of you put it very eloquently. That said, does anyone find it odd that Dead Can Dance (I'm just using them as example because they were so closely associated with the same fans in the same era, before I get jumped for this;)) admittedly uses 'gibberish' for lyrics, yet no one gives them half the flack that the poor Cocteaus have to endure??? Just an observation.

I agree with you, Mmmender. It can take years of listening (literally) to really start to decipher Liz's 'code'. Her lyrical phrasing IS one of the things that makes it 'Cocteau Twins'. As for the people that believe that it is ALL 'just noise', they haven't put in the years of listening required. Besides, no one would even care to know if she was using lyrics or not if the music and the voice didn't make for such an incredible listening experience! If it was crap, it would've been ignored.

Lucibelle

Sep-24-02, 10:32 PM

Just had to add this...Why not just sing some old bollocks that all of us can lalalala along to and we'd all be happier right? You'd be more popular cos the radio folk would play it, the fans would be happier cos they wouln't have to guess them all, right?

Not to offend, Simon, but I'm glad the Cocteau Twins never made it 'big' here. Don't get me wrong, I want all the success for you that you deserve. It's just that your music is far too special to become ruined by the mainstream here. I'm going to use another DCD example, here. (Don't hate me or kill me, it just fits! ;)) I saw Dead Can Dance for the first time live ever in Atlanta, Georgia for the tour which later became 'Toward the Within'. Being huge fans of theirs, my best friend and I were blown away by the concert, largely because half of which were songs that had never been released by them! The entire audience was in awe, waiting in complete silence until they were certain that the very last note had finished ringing. The people who were there were there because they knew this band's music intimately. The audience knew that these were new songs and in respect and awe of that, were dead silent to hear everything. So now, about a year later (maybe sooner than that? Don't remember) the 'Toward the Within' video and CD are released from that tour. This is causing a lot of stir by allowing people to share (somewhat) this experience. Many new people are now being introduced to this band. Less than a year after the video's release, Dead Can Dance are on tour again. This time, they actually come to Miami, Florida. :eek: It was the same tour, same songs, same stage settings, same costumes, same extra musicians (mostly), same EVERYTHING except for ONE THING!! .....the audience. The majority of the audience (oh, and it was sold out both shows) has no idea when a song is over, and starts clapping at the SLIGHTEST fading of sound. Cell phones are ringing, people are chatting. It was a horribly strange, 'Twilight Zone' type of parallel universe feeling. I almost expected the tour posters to include the phrase, "You've seen the video, now see the video live!" Even the band members felt the change (how could they not?). One of the percussionists, Ronan O Snodaigh, was different. On the first tour, he was a great visual for his 'aerobicized drumming' technique (actually tame on the video). On the second tour, he was hidden from view, and very calm by comparison. At the end of the show, Brendan and Lisa gave each other a hug. It was about as forced as you hugging your 'Aunt Edna', with the cigarette breath and WAY heavy perfume, as a child. It almost looked as though some idiot in a suit decided, "So at the end of the show, you two give each other a hug. It'll be huge!" Actual DCD albums in this suit's collection, zero.

What I'm getting at here is that while I would want everyone who would truly be touched by the Cocteau Twins' music to hear it, if it became 'hit' music (at least here in the US), it would attract a lot of idiots just because it is the flavor of the month. Obviously the Cocteaus have a VERY loyal fan base. 5 years after breakup, thriving discussion board and tattoos abound. ;) Everyone who is participating in this site's discussion board is here because they LOVE THIS MUSIC! Lyrics or 'gibberish', context or no context. Mainstream exposure would have taken something away. I mean, WE'd still be here, but instead of people saying 'huh?' at the mention of CT, they'd be saying more to the effect of, "Aw man, that band sucked! You should listen to more (insert any mainstream or hardcore band that in no way compares to the Twins here). Now THAT's music!" I mean, there are some people who say that now anyway, but imagine if everyone and their brother knew who they were. Now imagine that the only song that they are judging them by is something that mainstream media decided is 'good enough' to be heard! I don't even like to think about it.

Word of mouth was, is, and will always be the best form of advertising. When I introduce someone to their music on a grand spectrum, it's because somehow this person managed to hear one or two of their songs through me and they LIKED IT. There is enough crap out there masquerading as gold to keep the masses fooled. There's something very special about the elusiveness of Cocteau Twins. Their lyrics, their sound production techniques (still waiting to see if Simon reveals any 'secrets'. Heh, heh!), their EPs, their members, and their fans. It's VERY special to me. I'm glad that it was never lost.

steven

Sep-24-02, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by simon raymonde
TigerZ

That was only a brief period, and it irks me somewhat that CT will mostly be remembered as a band with a singer who just made noises.

I usually don't like to stick my head out in these discussions, and I am by no means a music historian, but in the final writing of the history of modern music of our era, I think Cocteau Twins will be viewed as not only groundbreaking, but as one of the most influencial bands ever. I don't think this is controversial as many music historians already have this view, and I don't feel this is a view simply coloured by my love for the twins music.

I always try to make a distinction between mass popularity with the general listening public, and influence on other musical peers and the overall musical landscape. I think the influence of cocteau twins on music in general and individual muscians has been enormous. There are obvious examples, the ambient movement, dreampop, alternative rock, but I also see less obvious influences that aren't easily measured, but are there.

For just one example, look at what Sigur Ros is doing with their new album. It's untitled ( ), contains eight untitled songs, and is sung entirely in "hopelandish" - they're made up language. This sounds eerily familar to me. I guess the point I am trying to make, is I think the the cocteau twins influence on the zeitgeist of music has been, and will continue to be, enormous.

Steven

REPLICESS

Sep-25-02, 5:26 AM

It's funny Simon, that you've bought up the fact that Liz IS actually singing 'real' words, as listening now to say, 'Garlands' with older ears, I can now hear them quite clearly. People assume that she's singing 'gibberish' - so that's what they hear !
Also, her accent was so strong then and that, I think, accounts for some of it.

If we're talking videos, then I'd have to say 'Aikea Guinea' is my favourite :) (how is the cat ?? ;) )

x

TigerZ

Sep-25-02, 8:50 AM

Simon, like, I said I do like Liz’ voice (and obviously the music as well cos it never really works otherwise..) and no, I don’t have all the CT albums so perhaps my generalisation about lyrical clarity is a bit skewed.

Actually my first post here was begging people for the words to Teardrop, so I’d be one of those people who would make the extra effort to find out what words someone is singing, (Mmmender kindly obliged with her interpretation of Teardrop) and then argue ad infinitum with people as to who had the right version :D .

Regarding Walsh and Waterman…well that was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion (as was my post in general to some degree…what Luci said…) but then again, their artists have slaughtered many a good song so don’t be so sure you’re immune! Having said that, I must also admit I do like to lalalala along to some old bollox on occasion ;) :D so I do find some of their artists’ tunes in my head at times... :eek: About the Cranberries…I think that woman has an awesome voice… ….actually I’m into female singers in general, but I wouldn’t like to give you a list cos that’d be too much like ammunition….. :D

randomrob

Sep-25-02, 9:03 AM

Im..... a ....... beast??! (sniff)

(drags blankie w/him as he shuffles away)

I think its real cool of Simon to pop-in and play.....

Phil Lawton

Sep-25-02, 9:15 AM

(pats Rob caringly on the head with a thirty pound lump hammer to console him)

seeingtree

Sep-25-02, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Lucibelle
does anyone find it odd that Dead Can Dance (I'm just using them as example because they were so closely associated with the same fans in the same era, before I get jumped for this;)) admittedly uses 'gibberish' for lyrics, yet no one gives them half the flack that the poor Cocteaus have to endure??? Just an observation

Possibly that may have something to do with the music press in the UK. DCD got very few reviews of anything and to the best of my knowledge, there was only ever one live review of them in NME.
On the other hand, the Cocteau's had two front covers in 84 (both framed here) and got loads of press and reviews.

I don't really remember there being that much about her not style of singing. It seems to me actually that most of it came as apologetic mutterings from fans. To me she just always sang how it felt. I mean, the english language is pretty limited.

On another point, I was really pissed off that they didn't become massive. When they sold out so many places on the Treasure tour I thought they would get big. Then when I first heard Iceblink Luck I thought,'top 10 at least'.

Lucibelle

Sep-25-02, 1:17 PM

Possibly that may have something to do with the music press in the UK. DCD got very few reviews of anything and to the best of my knowledge, there was only ever one live review of them in NME.
On the other hand, the Cocteau's had two front covers in 84 (both framed here) and got loads of press and reviews.

Hmmmmm.... I'm not sure if that would have been a good thing over on your side of the world, maybe it would, but over here I feel that it changes too much. Before you were huge, interview questions at least had to do with what you were doing. After you're huge, it's more to the effect of, "So do you think Britney Spears has had sex or not?" .....rediculous! ;)

seeingtree

Sep-25-02, 1:26 PM

Originally posted by Lucibelle
After you're huge, it's more to the effect of, "So do you think Britney Spears has had sex or not?" .....rediculous! ;)

Well has she??!! I'm curious now.

Interviews are pretty lame things anyhow. Generally artificial situations with the end product being edited to how someone wants it to read.

Or at least that is what bauhaus thought when they got Steve 'I'm a wanker' Sutherland up on stage with them. Am I allowed to swear? Oh, I just have.

But that is just interviews anyway. Being bigger may or may not have a result on the music made. And if it does, then that is up to the musicians. I don't believe in great music having to come out of being unknown/broke etc.

Lucibelle

Sep-25-02, 2:48 PM

Being bigger may or may not have a result on the music made. And if it does, then that is up to the musicians. I don't believe in great music having to come out of being unknown/broke etc.

Oh, I agree! It's just that the masses tend to rely on mainstream media to inform them of what 'good' music is. So much in fact, that there are tons of people with very little talent, particularly in the music biz, that are touted as magnificent. The 'thrown off a cliff' poll touches on that one! There are some very talented people who are in the 'top 40' and stay there because they understand the media game and how to play it to their advantage. Then there are some very mediocre talented people who have people writing their 'hit' songs for them, telling them what to wear and what to say. I just feel like a lot of good artists start to become viewed with different eyes once that high level of (media) success becomes a factor. Besides, media success is more often than not, fleeting. Once you've become a household name, you have to figure out a way to hold on to it. Then there's your image to consider. You had better look hot if you want to make music! :rolleyes: Look at that rediculous 'American Idol' tragedy. Are there any 'ugly' singers on that made it to the end? Any fat ones? Does this mean fat people can't sing or be admired? And what about that guy who lost his chance because he was something like ONE YEAR older than their 'limit'?! Who the hell cares? Look at how many ugly musicians there were in the 70s, before 'the look' was such a factor. Today's 'sound' is fitting as many notes into a single word as possible and looking like a spokesperson for Bally fitness centers. The bands that don't fall into this category often tend to have maybe one or two songs appropriate for top 40, then have other songs played on the 'other' radio stations.

A few bands will come along every so often and make popular a new sound. Once that is established, it is up to the music industry to come up with as many acts to imitate that sound as possible. Remember Grunge? God forbid you have something unique to offer. That would mean taking a risk and to them you are risking money, not musical integrity. It's not all like this, but tragically enough of the business is run this way to keep truly talented people from ever being heard. Now I agree that you should go out there and make a name for yourself, but if you can't sell millions of copies, you aren't going to last. Frank Zappa made a wonderful comment once about how if a rock/pop band sold 50,000 copies, they were nothing. While if an opera artist sold 50,000 copies, they'd be a fricken' hero!

Ultimately I just don't like the ultra-biased, narrow thinking, only concerned with bottom line thinking of mainstream media. Many 'one hit wonders' come and go and spend everything that they make (sometimes not near as much as you would think), because they don't take into account that maybe the next song won't be as successful. It's just a harsh business. But I think we've all met people who's only real source of musical input is the radio. How many times did it take to hear "Macarena" before you wanted to puke, yet months later, you still came across people who just loved that song. And how often had you memorized a song not because you love it, but because you were forced to hear it over and over and over again. So my beef is really with Pop radio more than anything. I'm not saying there's no talent on it, I just feel like many of the really, really talented artists get passed up because they do not fit the cookie cutter mold. Fortunately for them, there is word of mouth from the people that don't rely on the media to entertain them.

So that's all I mean, really. I just feel that the Cocteau remain in a higher calliber of artistry because mainstream media was not able to corrupt them. ;) I do want them to be succussful, but I'd hate to think of the 'one hit wonder' syndrome happening to them, where they then found it that much harder to be taken seriously because they became 'that band' with 'that song'. When the masses get to know you for just one thing, they tend to ignore the fact that you may have been around for years before they heard you. So I'm getting off of my soap box, now. Hope I haven't offended anyone!

seeingtree

Sep-25-02, 4:47 PM

I think I agree with you :)

The music industry has irrevocably changed though since sometime in the late 80s when single sales crashed and then into the 90s when games consoles and 101 other distractions arrived to take teens interests.

I don't think music is the force it once was and in an industry based in a world based on economic gain it is very hard to pay your shareholders unless you make money, hence the state of music in the mainstream.

I think there is hope always with the internet, labels like Dischord and other small labels and magazines like The Wire giving space for people to do their thing. I don't think though that anyone with any desire to say something significant or do something significant would choose the music industry as their outlet now. They'd probably make a console game instead.

zed

Sep-25-02, 5:06 PM

Angeldust....

really..don't give up on the arts!
with the white noise of media blinding people to how, and where it can be found, shit!...even how to experience it..it's no wonder
that most people can't even remember what it was!!
but...i assure you, really fine, truly excellent art is out there
in the world. you just have to WANT to fine it..and it will litterly, come to you.
it's a matter of turning down the distractions, like a radio frequency, and listening for it's voice....

i mean..hey, you've got a start already...you're on a cocteau twins website after all!

:D Zed...

Lucibelle

Sep-25-02, 5:37 PM

but...i assure you, really fine, truly excellent art is out there
in the world. you just have to WANT to fine it..

Exactly!

seeingtree

Sep-25-02, 7:22 PM

Originally posted by zed
Angeldust....

really..don't give up on the arts!
with the white noise of media blinding people to how, and where it can be found, shit!...even how to experience it..it's no wonder
that most people can't even remember what it was!!

I wouldn't worry about that.
I still fill my time going to eye and ear opening things...recently including a jaw dropping solo performance by the bloke from High Rise which was really just two hours of feedback. Excellent though. ballet Rambert soon and tonight was the Parkinsons.

Seriously, my own standards are just high. Endlessly going to see Test Dept, Neubauten, Swans and Laibach just opened my eyes to stuff and so much nowadays seems so un-confrontational. Not in the sense that I want someone in my face..but in terms of something to make me think and feel. But where I live is well served by the World's biggest arts festival so I get a good fill of it each year :) Plus Acid Mother's Temple have played here twice in the last 12 months..some experience that!

I hope I didn't actually give the impression that I had given up as I hadn't at all..I buy more music now than ever...there are jsut certain bands that I really feel are re-treading old ground and making it seem new ground.

zed

Sep-25-02, 7:43 PM

Crikey Dust old sock!

thought you were ready to give up!
i'm more than reassured now!

keep it up! the deeper you look the higher you fly!

:D Z.

stratton

Sep-30-02, 4:23 AM

With regard to a Cocteau Reunion...well, if it happens then great. I would love to see the three principal members come back together and rekindle the old magic. I think the split was inevitable and has been good for each member in different ways. There has obviously been a lot of growth for all and hopefully that will continue.

It's hard for any fan to contemplate a vault full of half and near completed tracks. You just want to say 'finish it off and be done then!'. But that's not fair to anyone because it wouldn't be done for the the right reasons nor in the spirit of the band. I think it would be nice if things settled down enough one day for the band to continue on. So many artists these days work with different musicians and in different capacities. I am the eternal optimist so I think it's possible for a reunion of sorts to happen with all parties involved still working on other projects too.

One thing I would like know about is a potential live release. I remember Robin and Simon both talking about the fantastic performance turned in at Olympia in Paris, '96 which was incidentally also recorded. With the band at such an amazing live peak I would love to see that come out. It's been a full two years since 'Stars and Topsoil' so it seems the time could be right. Any thoughts on that Simon?

zed

Sep-30-02, 10:25 AM

S.

as eternally optimistic as i am, the idea of a reunion,
feels as impossible as elvis "entering the building".

threre are i suspect VERY deep waters unseen by those
such as us....as it should be.
everyone...don't hold your breath. just be glad we've got what we've got.

Z.

Phil Lawton

Sep-30-02, 10:28 AM

Stratton

There's more chance of Bin Laden marrying Bush's daughter, with Tony Blair as best man.

zed

Sep-30-02, 10:43 AM

Phil....

you know, there HAVE ben- rumors.....
imagin the sound of things breaking...!!!

:D Z.

stratton

Sep-30-02, 1:24 PM

ack...Bin-Laden and a Bush Twin? Do they allow women to drink beer over there because if not it might be a problem...lol.

On the subject of a CT reunion - Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't sit around holding my breath. I was sad to see them go but have definitely moved on. However, as long as all three principle members are alive and well you can't rule anything out. It's just that simple. Time tends to be a healer. But anyway...

zed

Oct-1-02, 4:42 AM

awww, i dunno,
imagin getting back together with your ex wife/ partner/ companion...whatever to finish a party you left, a DECADE ago, that's STILL going on....!!!

you see...life does indeed go on.....
that's what it's for.

but.........;)

Z.

Lucibelle

Oct-1-02, 7:37 AM

Heh heh heh! Well put, Zed!

rilkean

Oct-3-02, 11:00 PM

Hello again....some time since i´ve post my last message.

Well, i´m not a man of many words, but i think i MUST post my feelings in relation to this topic (band reunion, nostalgia....etc).
As many of you guys have posted, i´ve enjoyed every Cocteau track that had come to my ears, the emotionally charged music....swirling magic....creativity....genius!!!!
I think that the cocteaus was the most genuine band i´ve ever heard and really miss them. I´ve not been a long time fan as maybe many of you are, since i heard their music for the first time back in 1996 (near their splitting!!!!!...oh, and i wasn´t aware :( ), studying for an exam.....HOLV, was my first experience with the cocteaus......extremelly different and attracting.
Later, it was a voyage of surrealism....Lp to Lp, Ep to Ep.....undescriptable. Great legacy to all of us who like music perceived as an spiritual experience.
Well, the reality now is that they are not more as a band...and that´s fine to me in the sense that it´s their timing, their way of growing....finally they´re human like us and have their lives. I think, in many ways they still live in us....in our idealism and enthusiasm. If they reunite, GREAT!!!!, but will be in their time..... meanwhile, we can still make them real in our hearts....

that´s all for now, hugs for everyone (including you S, R and of course L)

;)

mmmender

Oct-24-03, 2:31 AM

*bump*

petroldarling

Oct-24-03, 12:18 PM

coming in about a year late to this thread, i must say it was absolutely fascinating to read.

Phil Lawton

Oct-25-03, 9:29 AM

This must have been the longest thread I ever started WITHOUT someone becoming pissed off with me in some form or other.

Thanks for bumping it, Lees.

Colin

Oct-25-03, 11:57 AM

Nice to see this thread, which predates my hangin’ round here. Wondered why the whole decipherable-lyrics thing seldom comes up.

I rarely check out the lyrical interpretations because I love that the lyrics (if any) are not recognizable. This appealed to me on a gut level the moment I first heard their songs, and for a long time I resisted wrapping words around the magic of defying language, but I think it comes down to this:

For me, the gift of music is emotional catharsis. While we can’t always understand her words, Liz’s vocals are crammed with so much emotion – emotion in its purest form, an emotion that defies language. Often my own emotional state – be it joy, anger, sadness, whatever – defy a clear explanation. But every other piece of music you might reach for imposes contexts on your emotions – I’m happy ‘coz a girl likes me; I’m sad cuz my man dun treat me bad. Emotion often defies context, so if I am steeped in a raw state (for no reason or for a thousand reasons) and seek catharsis, I don’t want to hear some yammering about she’s-seein-another-guy or oops-I-did-it-once-more. Liz distills inner emotional life to its core and essence, and communicates it more clearly than any other vocalist because she defies the limits of context and, more broadly, the limits of language.

The sound of pure anger? Musette and Drums. The sound of pure joy? Carolyn’s fingers. The sound of strong, erupting emotion that defy category? Blue Bell Knoll (always the song I reach for when a major life event has struck, be it good or bad).

More singers should follow the credo — Don’t give me your contexts and sob-stories. I want that pure emotion!!