4cc V M&k [Archive] - cocteautwinsforums.com

watchlar

Oct-9-02, 12:45 AM

wow that's a tough one...i would say FCC ..but that's just me...i have a real soft spot for it...M&K is wonderous as well...but not as "tight" as FCC in my opinion...why oh why did they put that oom pa pa version of Half-Gifts on there...sorry Simon..but it really traumatizes me...The original piano version is much better.

W

Lucibelle

Oct-9-02, 1:56 AM

Buy both!

zed

Oct-9-02, 5:32 AM

...............buy em both..take them home, record just the good stuff from both...make four calander kisses...

one great cd!

Z.

Phil Lawton

Oct-9-02, 5:41 AM

M&K, no question. Stronger songs, generally uplifting and better sleeve design.

zed

Oct-9-02, 7:14 AM

.........oh yeah...........covers. if it wasn't the twins,............
aww fuck it, EVEn if it's the twins...that fcc cover is so second rate,..it dosen't.

and fcc is overall.. a bit down.

cripes, i dunno! hows that for help!

:confused: Z

Baddy2shoos

Oct-9-02, 8:27 AM

Essence, Know who you are ay every age and Bluebeard three of their best in my opinion

watchlar

Oct-9-02, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
M&K, no question. Stronger songs, generally uplifting and better sleeve design.

WHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTT?

Phil Lawton

Oct-9-02, 11:54 AM

Problem wid de old reading equipment, Watch? Doh, OK, I'll retype it slowly so you can keep up....

M&K, no question. Stronger songs, generally uplifting, better artwork.

I feel a Watchlar-shaped attack approaching...

mmmender

Oct-9-02, 11:57 AM

watchy, sit over here next to me on the bitch sofa while i talk to phil.

philip, since the inception of this fine discussion board i've been questioning your sanity and have yet to see proof of said sanity herein. your response, as outlined in this thread, has provided me with the evidence i so desired. let it be known that you are indeed certifiable. when the wee white men show up with that jacket i've ordered just let them put it on you, it'll be gorgeous, i promise.....buckles are so 'in' right now phil.

milk and kisses over four calendar café? JESUS H CHRIST, MAN! to me m&k is the absolute weakest cocteau album ever produced and it's a shame that it was their last album because it means that they left me with a bad taste in my mouth (no sexual references required here please). fcc is a much stronger album, the band was spot-on....liz in top form....music as thick as i remember it sounding.....dreamy yet tight and together, not lost and misunderstood and not half-arsed like m&k.

(my other personality is breaking through again now so i must take leave of this thread.) :cool:

Phil Lawton

Oct-9-02, 12:17 PM

Leesa

So sweet of you to mention my mental state...I remain in blissful sub-cognisance of my surroundings until the buckles bite.

Hmm...FCC....three good tracks - "Know Who You Are", Bluebeard and Summerhead. The rest are so depressing I skip them. Vies with "Garlands" as my least favourite and only just comes out on top. God-awful artwork.

Hmm...M&K....I skip one track (Half Gifts, but that looks like a common theme)...the rest a glorious. "Violaine" is a personal favourite, as is "Serpenskirt" (yes, Lees,I know you hate it). "Ups" makes me feel good for the day if I play it on the way to work. "Treasure Hiding" is ace. Luscious artwork.

There, said and done and I expect to be pinched, punched, dined and brunched.

crushed

Oct-9-02, 12:18 PM

I would recommend to anyone that they buy FCC first. Being able to understand some of Liz's lyrics is quite refreshing. The production is warm throughout and is WAY better than M&K (I find the sound on parts of M&K to be thin and grating - hard on my ears when I turn it up - , especially on the vocals).

Cheers,

Christopher

Phil Lawton

Oct-9-02, 12:24 PM

Heathen.

crushed

Oct-9-02, 12:25 PM

As a nod to Phil...

I like those songs, too, Phil (UPS would be perhaps my favorite CT tune...if it had been recorded during the FCC session). I also really like the bass and vocals on Eperdu.

Cheers,

Christopher

crushed

Oct-9-02, 12:46 PM

Changing topics here slightly (sorry)...

I always wonder how much the unique production/engineering of CT songs (Peppermint Pig e.p. excepted) has affected opinions about the songs themselves. Unlike, say, REM or U2 (am I allowed to utter these bands on this site?), where the production is secondary to the song structures and lyrics, with Cocteau Twins I find the sound is what affects me first.

I also find it somewhat strange that I just told Phil that I really like the warm sounding and clean production of FCC, but then I really love the production of the 'loves easy tears' e.p., 'orange appled', 'circling girl', and those are kinda 'harsh' sounding to me (in an appealling way).

What do you think? What songs from one album or e.p. would you like to hear recorded in the same manner as a completely different session (i.e. with Robin's constantly using different drum machine and recording equipment/effects)? And, though one of the reasons I love CT is that the had the DYI attitude throughout most of their career, is there any producer you would would have liked to see produce some of their work?

Cheers,

Christopher

watchlar

Oct-9-02, 1:03 PM

Listening to Milk and Kisses again today on the way to work...God I love it but ...the tracks don't blend like FCC...it's like a collection of tracks or b-sides...but doesn't really give you a real album "feeling" etc... Sorry Phil...just my opinion ;)

Same with HOLV and BBK...the tracks on both of those albums really blend together well....there's just something about M&K that sounds disjointed...
W

watchlar

Oct-9-02, 1:06 PM

Originally posted by crushed
Changing topics here slightly (sorry)...

I also find it somewhat strange that I just told Phil that I really like the warm sounding and clean production of FCC, but then I really love the production of the 'loves easy tears' e.p., 'orange appled', 'circling girl', and those are kinda 'harsh' sounding to me (in an appealling way).
Cheers,

Christopher

funny you should mention circling girl....I think it's definitely a M&K track...Replace the oom pa pa half gifts with it ;)

W

dynamine

Oct-9-02, 2:01 PM

fcc for sure,better songs,i would always start w/earlier
material anyways.but that's just me.

"i should welt should i hold you"

steven

Oct-9-02, 2:27 PM

I think the production on M&K was inconsistent, a bit scattered. Also, I think the mixing was somewhat lack luster, at least, in relation to FCC. I agree with the sentiment M&K didn't have a consistent, album feel. For what ever reason, the twins seemed to be all of the place in that last period. In any event, at least there was one gem with Seekers.

Steven

dynamine

Oct-9-02, 2:49 PM

or mmm's fav.=serpentskirt:D hehehe

on air now=VNV NATION-darkangel

"to the darkened skies once more,and ever onward"

Phil Lawton

Oct-10-02, 4:08 AM

Hmm...

Yes, the FCC tracks do flow together.....into one enormous pool of depression.

I started a thread a while back about CT lyrics being discernable. I prefer them to be gibberish. I've also said here that I'm not particularly interested in what was going on in the Fraser/Guthrie relationship. FCC crossed both of these lines for me. That said, I'm so "tuned out" from the GTO's vocals, I'm always amazed when people post up lyrics from FCC. I do get snippets, but rarely.

As for the soul-baring that was evident on the album, Liz said it all with no words on "Pink Orange Red" much more powerfully than anything on FCC.

CT were always about expressing a feeling rather than an idea. FCC (and, admittedly, in places, M&K) jettisons this trend and it's not my cup of tea (in the main...I do like three tracks).

Oh, and the artwork is God-awful.....23 Envelope must have been turning in their gravy.

zed

Oct-10-02, 4:18 AM

...aww come on Phil ....squeeze wax was depressing?

;) Z.

slipmaskin

Oct-10-02, 9:01 AM

M & K disrupts. Sub-par at best. Makes the break-up even more evident. A flair for rehashes is not what I consider recreative flair. They surely had a string of great albums in past time, but this was certainly not one of them.

The good old final, unessential, album, with the Cocteau's capturing the clichés.

FCC over M & K, whereas the former is more than passable.. not a favorite, though.

Hejdå,

/Matte

Phil Lawton

Oct-10-02, 9:44 AM

Another heathen.

I cannot believe the massed opinion about M&K. Dare I even say that I think it's better than "Treasure"? Oh, Lordy-dordy and wrap me in barbed wire, I've said it.

I see M&K as a sort of "OK, lads, we've wallowed in our problems for an album...let's get back to doing what we do best" statement.

Not that I care, really. As my old Grandad used to say:

"Phil, opinions are like arseholes...everyone's got one, they're all different and the owner of each protects it with his life."

He was barking mad, though.

zed

Oct-10-02, 11:08 AM

Phil.....there is a certain brittle clearity to 4cc that sometimes seems to be almost to much, sonically, i maybe wrong cause i've got some hearing distortion from WAY to loud to close...on the other hand M&K does, at least to me a warmer sound that i find more CT sounding....i prefere the songs as a whole on 4cc...
but i pyhisically enjoy M&K better.... whats a guy ta do!?

six a one half a dozen of the other.

;) Z.

mmmender

Oct-10-02, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by dynamine
or mmm's fav.=serpentskirt:D hehehe
on air now=VNV NATION-darkangel
WOOHOOOOOOO another VNV fan!!!!!!!!!

simon raymonde

Oct-10-02, 6:59 PM

actually the 'original' piano version was not.
the oompa version came first, from robin's france trip, and when we decided to do the duel ep idea of acoustic vs dub ambient, that was when i worked it out on the piano and we tried it out , but yes i prefer it, kind of. though liz's delivery on original makes me cry more.

watchlar

Oct-11-02, 2:03 AM

Originally posted by Phil Lawton

As for the soul-baring that was evident on the album, Liz said it all with no words on "Pink Orange Red" much more powerfully than anything on FCC.

Oh, and the artwork is God-awful.....23 Envelope must have been turning in their gravy.

*RUBBING EYES* ..yep i read that correctly....
OMG

;) phil

W

watchlar

Oct-11-02, 2:05 AM

Originally posted by simon raymonde
though liz's delivery on original makes me cry more.

that is so damn sweet....i'm misting as i type...
w

ScottL

Oct-11-02, 2:15 AM

Yeah, that Half Gifts from Twinlights is quite moving, I like the BBC version alot, those were real drums right? I have to say I like the oompa version..I know that flanger keyboard sound gives it a toylike ring, I still enjoy the guitar tones..and singing too.

I too don't enjoy the mixing and eq as much on M&K, FCC is their most well MIXED album in my book too...I don't have specific criticism otherwise of M&K, it just mostly doesn't do it for me...I pop it in from time to time...

So Phil, indeed your opinion is your own...if FCC doesn't float your boat like M&K doesn't so much mine, I actually can quite understand...but personally I don't get why you are so hung up on the lyrics esp. the depressing thing...I agree with what Brittany said on that victorialand thread, I don't find any CT depressing really...if I sit and listen to words, I find Half Gifts touches most on depressed feelings I've had in the past...I like much sombre stuff which I often find soothing and not at all depressing....depressing is bad pop music blaring when I just want to be alone in silence or hearing some nice music...
But I don't find somber in a monolithic way...sure the it has quiet parts...but I find 4 songs at least quite uplifiting, 2 or 3 pleasant and peaceful, and then a few somber ones....if it is one big wash of depression for you...well...sorry...that sucks, I can't say that for any CT I've heard though....

I agree about the thickness mmmender...I've gotten majorly lost in the vast space created by Theft and Wandering Around Lost

TigerZ

Oct-11-02, 9:12 AM

Originally posted by Phil Lawton
I started a thread a while back about CT lyrics being discernable. I prefer them to be gibberish.

So many great and interesting comments. Thanks everyone! I picked the one above as being one of the one's that struck me...I wonder if it's a common feeling among you guys?

Anyway, I bought Four-Calendar Cafe that day. It seems like nice Chill-Out music to me, having listened to it a few times since. Obviously, as I don't know what M&K sounds like I can't compare the two.....Lucky Me! :D

Phil Lawton

Oct-11-02, 9:16 AM

Tigerz

You chose unwisely, my son, and may not leave the temple.

TigerZ

Oct-11-02, 9:20 AM

*Crashes through a window and runs off...* :p :D

superblast

Oct-11-02, 10:25 AM

they're both excellent albums in such very different ways... m&k was my first cocteaus album and i think i would have been better off starting with blue bell knoll or treasure which were more instantly enjoyable for me... it took me quite a while to get to like M&K and HOLV for that matter. FCC has always been a favorite... it's consistently good... M&K has calfskin smack and rilkean heart (i like the twinlights version better, come to think of it) which are two of the 10 or so best CT songs for me but it's not something i like listening to nearly as much as FCC...

Phil Lawton

Oct-11-02, 10:33 AM

Superblast

You, too, shall walk the fiery path of Xianquan the Dragon, who's hot breath shall scorch your soul as you seek enlightenment.

slipmaskin

Oct-11-02, 12:47 PM

I forebode an arousing victory for FCC. Let it not be unbeknownst to you that this is an absolute prophecy, with no doodling allowed. This is the imperative truth, in that it must be heeded. Rejection is not the answer.

Come. Follow suit. It will not hurt one tiny bit (eggs and their shells WILL be catapulted, though).

Hejdå,

/Matte

Phil Lawton

Oct-11-02, 12:56 PM

I cannot follow you to the Dark Side...as a Jedi Moderator, I must follow the force.

glint

Oct-11-02, 1:03 PM

I know you dislike the 4CC art, but I saw a Taiwan or Chinese import on eBay a while back with completely different art, would that help? (I wish I had picture to attatch....)

crushed

Oct-11-02, 1:04 PM

I prefer total gibberish...BBK and Love's Easy Tears are faves...but still thought it was somewhat cool when I could understand what liz was singing.

It's her incredible phrasing with CT that mattered anyway. Gibberish combined with lousy phrasing gets boring (a major problem for CT wannabe bands...), but even the most mundane lyric can be inspiring with decent phrasing and/or emotion (I'm not talking about Mariah Carey-type emotion).

Christopher

crushed

Oct-11-02, 1:06 PM

I prefer gibberish...

and that's why I like Phil:D

someotherian

Oct-11-02, 3:03 PM

Originally posted by glint
I saw a Taiwan or Chinese import on eBay a while back with completely different art
i've seen the taiwanese version of 4cc first-hand, and believe me is is seriously strange.
and i still don't think phil would like it! :)

mmmender

Oct-11-02, 3:15 PM

i have a copy of the taiwan edition of fcc, both the artwork and layout are bizarre.....an astronomical themed digipak over-top a regular jewel case. the best bit? look closely and you'll see that the album title is "four CAINDER café" and for some reason along the bottom of the album cover it says "know who you are at every age" ! go figure!

http://www.cocteautwins.org/~leesa/cocteautwins/cgraphix/scanned/fcc_taiwan.jpg

watchlar

Oct-11-02, 4:04 PM

that looks like crap...but a nice addition to a collection ;)

W

slipmaskin

Oct-11-02, 8:57 PM

The vocal contributions to BBK are awe-inspiring... FCC seems like a misdemeanour in such regards, but it's still head and shoulders above the "competition" that is M & K.

!!

Come to think of it, it'd be quite a mind-bending task, offering to rank their albums/general releases (and I'm not talking about alphabetical order).. quality was often their regularity.

Oh, and that FCC-redux is transcendental... in its bombast. Otherworldly.

Hejdå,

/Matte

watchlar

Oct-11-02, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by Phil Lawton

I feel a Watchlar-shaped attack approaching...

I would never attack you Phil...that post about "reading what you typed correctly" was supposed to be funny...please take no offense to that at all...

:)

Steve
you know i'm serious when i use my real name...LOL