Indian American = Cocteau Love?

[Avninder]

I'm a second generation Indian, ie. my parents immigrated from India. Given their somewhat acquired taste, I have pondered about my almost automatic gravitation towards the Cocteau Twins. As a child, I grew up in America listening to Indian music but during Junior High, I stopped listening to Indian music alltogether and began listening to alternative music. When I first listened to the Twins, I noticed that I immediately fell in love with Liz's voice. There was something about her sopprano that had a somewhat a primal appeal to me. Shortly thereafter, I remember playing the Twins to a friend and his first and strongly negative reaction was that Liz sounded like a Hindi playback singer. Although I immediately dismissed him, I began wondering... Did growing up on Soppratic Indian singers facilitate my immediate liking for the Cocteau Twins? Sometimes, I still wonder about this because it seems to make some sense.

[Thackeray]

You might see that connection and I do. I also see middleeastern influence to their music and in music Theory that makes some sense to me. However I don't know, personally if these are influences of the band or happenstance.

Anyone have some definitive answers?

[mmmender]

did you say THE cocteau twins?

[dprid]

Yeh, I can see where you're coming from as a lot of Indian music (or at least what I've heard) is very strong on the female voice. Obviously as a non-Hindi speaker (nor any of the other languages) I tend to think of the voice more in terms of an instrument, which is how I often think of Liz. No doubt you spoke the language and actually understood the songs so it's interesting to me that you've still made that link.

[Thackeray]

did you say THE cocteau twins?



Y' know, adorable, I absolutely love scarlet...Mmmmuhh!

Eastern pop (not the 33 note chromatic)/middle eastern music (24 note chromatic) -why yes! I read it eyes closed pen out of hand with even Guthrie's bends and effects modulations much less some scalings which I will cite and list if required...

hasn't this subject been brought to forums before? -I'm relatively new-

[Avninder]

Nope... I never said THE. However, the as in to present the name Cocteau Twins, yes. However, if I had said The Cocteau Twins, as though The was part of their name, I would understand your indignation.

[frarn]

Nope... I never said THE. However, the as in to present the name Cocteau Twins, yes. However, if I had said The Cocteau Twins, as though The was part of their name, I would understand your indignation.

gosh, mmmender is so sharp on the name thing! nice side step though, Avninder! ;-)

[mmmender]

I'm a second generation Indian, ie. my parents immigrated from India. Given their somewhat acquired taste, I have pondered about my almost automatic gravitation towards the Cocteau Twins. ....hen I first listened to the Twins, ........... I remember playing the Twins ........... immediate liking for the Cocteau Twins?

i must correct you, sir. in all of the above sentences you used the word THE incorrectly.

[mmmender]

it should read......

"gravitation towards Cocteau Twins....."

"when I first listened to Cocteau Twins...."

"I remember playing Cocteau Twins...."

"immediate liking for Cocteau Twins..."

[mmmender]

would you say THE radiohead?

thought not.

[Avninder]

I think I'll try that one. I kind of like the sound... The Radiohead

[Avninder]

Ok, aside of the "The" thing, do you really have anything to say about this thread or just enjoy being the "The" police?

[DJ SMITHMIX]

I worship Indian music. I totally see the soppratic influence. I started listening to Liz, Asha Bhosle, Sheila Chandra (her days in the group "Monsoon") and Lisa Gerrard all in 1984. So, Indian culture, and music have had a great influence on me. I alway tell people, Im a sucker for a sitar and tabla's! By the way, have you all heard Sheila Chandra's version of "Song To The Siren"? Its quite wonderful! If anyone needs a copy, Im willing to do a mixed cdr trade?

[travieso]

I can perhaps see how loving the sound of playback singers might predispose one to like Liz Fraser's voice, but since I'm preparing to teach some basics of Indian music, north and south, to undergrads a couple of weeks from now, I'm a little harder pressed to hear the connection. Her voice is definitely as beautiful as that of Asha Bhosle (or her older sister Lata Mangeshkar) but the kind of pitch play and ornamentation in what the Indian singers do couldn't be more different from what Liz does. Liz's work, while undoubtedly beautiful, doesn't highlight as many points in what you might call the cracks between the piano keys as a skilled Indian singer might. LF tends to ornament things in ways that are much closer to what you might expect of someone raised in the UK, hearing pop and folk musics of various kinds and getting into Nina Simone and Edith Piaf, among others, as time went by....

So, if people in this forum who'd never heard B. or M. listened to them after reading this thread, they might say, "Okay, I kinda hear it, but...." Then again, they might listen to Simone or Piaf and say the same thing.

taj.

[andylama]

I'm burdened by unfamiliarity with the terminology "playback singer", can someone enlighten me? Is this more a "Bollywood thing" than a classical raga type thing?

[mmmender]

Ok, aside of the "The" thing, do you really have anything to say about this thread or just enjoy being the "The" police?
i'm just prone to being a real smart ass.

[andylama]

Ok, aside of the "The" thing, do you really have anything to say about this thread or just enjoy being the "The" police?
The The Police? That was two bands from the 1980s, right?

Sorry, I'm catching a free ride on Mmmender's smartass coattails.

[travieso]

I'm burdened by unfamiliarity with the terminology "playback singer", can someone enlighten me?

The most famous singers in Bollywood films didn't appear on screen, but had an amazing skill for tailoring what and how they sang for the actors who'd appear to be singing on screen. Although this isn't the direct etymology, you could say they sang for playback. The major difference is that while the offscreen singers were fairly well-known in Bollywood films, their counterparts in Hollywood films were, until recently, much more likely to go uncredited (think Marnie Nixon for The Sound of Music).

taj

[travieso]

Okay, I'll stop adding to this thread soon enough, but I just heard a song that I think really supports the original contention that there's a similarity of sound between Liz Fraser and some Indian singers. If you can find a copy of "Aye-Dil-D-Nadan" from the 1983 film Razia Sultan, you'll hear both where the voices are uncannily alike and where they couldn't be more dissimilar. The singer in this case is Lata Mangeshkar. If there's enough interest, I'll privately post an mp3 for folks to hear....

taj.

[andylama]

Okay, I'll stop adding to this thread soon enough, but I just heard a song that I think really supports the original contention that there's a similarity of sound between Liz Fraser and some Indian singers. If you can find a copy of "Aye-Dil-D-Nadan" from the 1983 film Razia Sultan, you'll hear both where the voices are uncannily alike and where they couldn't be more dissimilar. The singer in this case is Lata Mangeshkar. If there's enough interest, I'll privately post an mp3 for folks to hear....
I'm game for a listen!

Thanks for the explanation in your last post. I figured it was something along those lines.

[Avninder]

If you don't hear a connection, listen to THE High Monkey Monk off of The Cocteau Twins box set. The Liz's voice connects notes instead of singing each of them individually. It is sung with a Raga style and lends itself more to an Indian than a Nina Simone origin.







this post dedicated to THE Mmmender. Mr. A says, "If Mmmender can add a few letters in her name, what harm than is it to use The Cocteau Twins every now and again?"

[DJ SMITHMIX]

I would love to hear it also! I didn't realize she was Asha Bhosle's older sister! I will have to investigate this!
I just purchased a really cool dvd called "Bombay Talkie". The feature film itself is "ok" but it's the special on "Helen, Queen Of Nautch Girls" documentary that demonstrates how they used the playback method, and follows the infamous Queen Helen's career. I noticed that Asha Bhosle vocals were used in quite a few of these films. Its really amasing how they made
thousands of these films so quickly to quench the people's thirst for modern Indain films!
I watched it four times aready! The music is way too much fun! Rent this film sometime, you wont be disappointed!

[ScottL]

If you don't hear a connection, listen to THE High Monkey Monk off of The Cocteau Twins box set. The Liz's voice connects notes instead of singing each of them individually. It is sung with a Raga style and lends itself more to an Indian than a Nina Simone origin.


I think of that song as the best example of that in Liz's repertoire also. Honestly, I always thought she used a technique similar to the Raga style but without sounding like any common Indian melodies I recall, which are admittedly few. But I felt she embodied those qualities more or less without sounding overtly 'Indian'.

I love that song though, and I do think it stands apart from most her other work in that regard. Few of her vocal melodies remind me of Indian music in any way really.
Dunno, I'm neither an expert in vocal forms or Indian music, but I do enjoy studying both :)

[travieso]

Okay, I just listened to "The High Monkey Monk" again, and I couldn't agree more. For those who were interested in the Mangeshkar track, you can download it (it's a little over 8MB) here:

http://home.uchicago.edu/~travieso/Docs/aye-dil.mp3

I'll leave it up for a day or so from the time this message appears. Enjoy....

taj.

[mmmender]

Sorry, I'm catching a free ride on Mmmender's smartass coattails.
feel free.

but they're actually whales tails

(sorry, you walked right into that smart ass one)