Drums & backing singers [Archive] - cocteautwinsforums.com

Phil Lawton

Dec-3-02, 9:38 AM

Something I've been musing over....

Why do you reckon that CT didn't a) use a live drummer (as opposed to the drum machines) on their recordings and b) use backing singers for live performances?

I've read comments and theories regarding there not being room in the studio for another ego (which, given everything I've ever read about the band's "ordinariness", sounds not quite right), but what's the common feel? Do you think that CT could have/would have been better or worse for a real metal-and-plastic basher?

Backing singers for live appearances would have, in my view, have enhanced CT's performances. Now, there's a school of thought that this would have made Liz's live efforts more linear and structured. I agree with this to a certain degree, but this cannot be true of the early stuff (up to and including the HOLV tours). The GTO's live wailing, scat singing and general improvisation would have had any backing singers on the FCC and M&K tours running for the dressing rooms, but I'm mystified as to why earlier tours left the GTO do it on her own. Surely not just a question of finance?

Thoughts, anyone?

mmmender

Dec-3-02, 10:50 AM

backing vocals are for people with thin voices. liz doesn't need backing vocals, plain and simple.:cool:

stratton

Dec-3-02, 11:12 AM

I can't quote the actual article because I don't remember which magazine it's in BUT, I do remember reading something where Liz was interviewed and asked why she didn't ever use backing vocalists. Her response was something along the lines of 'I prefer to back myself up...'. I also remember reading somewhere that Liz actually considered using Eddi Reader(Fairground Attraction) as a backing vocalist on the 4CC tour but decided against it in the end. That would have been really interesting. Eddi thanked Liz in a recent album liner notes for her vocals on 'Take Me With You', which as most of you know was the track Liz contributed to 'The Winter Guest' soundtrack. I guess they're friends.

someotherian

Dec-3-02, 11:13 AM

i never really liked the use of a real drummer that much. but i can see good reasons why that path was taken.

as for liz fraser + backing singers? that's just wrong.

mmmender

Dec-3-02, 11:22 AM

yeah but "the winter guest" movie SUCKED!:rolleyes:

Phil Lawton

Dec-3-02, 11:25 AM

Ian

"Wrong" is quite a strong word.....wouldn't you like to have heard those golden harmonies reproduced live? The power of "Heaven Or Las Vegas", done live with all of the swirling vocal parts, would have been staggeringly good.

Or d'ya think Liz didn't want another person to take some of the limelight away from her on-stage?

Phil Lawton

Dec-3-02, 11:32 AM

Maybe Robin didn't want a drummer on stage in the early days as it would have taken some of the focus from his guitar-pyrotechnics. Most drummers are pretty flamboyant.

someotherian

Dec-3-02, 11:34 AM

i just don't think it would sound right having the harmonies done by anyone else.

mmmender

Dec-3-02, 11:48 AM

the words 'liz' and 'limelight' shouldn't be used in the same sentence philip. this is not a pop diva we're talking about here. liz never needed backstage pampering, stretch limos, all white dressing rooms and matching roses before every performance.....she has happily shared the stage with many.

ScottL

Dec-3-02, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by mmmender
backing vocals are for people with thin voices. liz doesn't need backing vocals, plain and simple.:cool:

Heh...well given that, it is surprising she recorded so many backing vocal tracks in the studio...

mmmender

Dec-3-02, 1:17 PM

yep, but then i've always thought she over did it with vocal layers......when you hear the starkness on a track like the a capella interlude your heart nearly stops!

Sean_Montgomery

Dec-3-02, 1:32 PM

It could be that Liz prefers having the freedom to...um...improvise when performing live. Having backup singers requires a pretty tight show, with everyone knowing when the other's parts begin and end. And, of course, it would require Liz to actually transcribe her 'lyrics', so the other singers know what to vocalize!

As for the drum parts, I prefer having them done live. Perhaps in the early days they used a machine for economic reasons?

Sean_Montgomery

Dec-3-02, 1:35 PM

Ha! I have just learned the perils of hitting the 'reply' button too soon. I didn't read to the end of Phil's message...I see he made pretty much the exact same point that I just did about singers. Well, I guess that makes the point doubly valid then! :-)

iceblink

Dec-3-02, 3:27 PM

I love drum machines, so they definetly hit the nail on the head with that one. I mean, the guitar and vocals are so amazing, they only need drums to keep the timing. As for backround vocals, I always thought they were kind of cheesey. Liz's voice is so amazing that any other voice next to hers would just sound silly. And I always really liked all the layering she does, but I do also like when it is just her (BBC, Twinlights).

This was a very good topic Phil, I had never thought of it before!!

crushed

Dec-3-02, 3:28 PM

I suspect that Robin liked collecting - and then programming - drum machines. I mean, some songs have some pretty intricate drums parts, too, so that must've been fun to do.

Plus, there was the whole issue of having absolute control over their sound, which I think then became less of a problem late in the band's career.

Still, I think live drums on Treasure, Blue Bell Knoll, and particularly The Moon and the Melodies, would've been great. But, they would've needed someone with a light touch and ability to follow directions to make it work.

dynamine

Dec-3-02, 3:52 PM

as the Cocteau Twins' music is so personal,so much a part
of each of the group's members,one wonders what they
would do if they weren't musicians.At last,a question Robin
can answer without hesitation:
"Own a restaurant and eat ourselves to death"

Phil Lawton

Dec-3-02, 6:20 PM

Oh, good...rant material.

i was just thinking that for a person who isn't really that into the cocteau twins you sure have a lot to say about them

B - whatever made you think such a thing? I'm not a fan of the live stuff, by any means...the studio was a different universe. At least the GTO hit all of the notes in the studio....something sadly lacking in some live performances.

Heh...well given that, it is surprising she recorded so many backing vocal tracks in the studio...

Well said, young Jedi Cocteau-er. I bought the albums for the studio sound, not the live sound.

the words 'liz' and 'limelight' shouldn't be used in the same sentence philip

I can always tell when I'm in the shit with Mmmender...she calls me "Philip". Get away, Lees...she loved it - you can see it in her face on the live VCD.

And, of course, it would require Liz to actually transcribe her 'lyrics', so the other singers know what to vocalize!

Nightmare!!!!!!! Well, she could have done it for the FCC and M&K songs, no problem.

love drum machines, so they definetly hit the nail on the head with that one. I mean, the guitar and vocals are so amazing, they only need drums to keep the timing

So why waste time and money programming such intricate patterns, when they could have used OMD "pith-plack-pith-plack" sounds?

by the way is it true that you were really once helen keller's squash partner?

Yep...and still the reigning champ.

backing vocals are for people with thin voices. liz doesn't need backing vocals, plain and simple

I give you "Underwater", "This Love" and "Teardrop" as evidence, your honour, that the voice was a bit on the anorexic side toward the end. I reckon she used a stunt double on "Seekers Who Are Lovers"....probably Tom Petty.

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 11:34 AM

Imaginary scenario...CT, post sound-check at a venue somewhere. Liz sits knitting a new hat and the newly acquired backing singers are in a huddle, all clutching pieces of paper. One of them is pushed forward as spokesman.

Backing singer: "Um..can we have a word, Mrs Guthrie?"

GTO: "It's not Mrs Guthire...we're not married...it's Miss Fraser, but you can call me 'Liz'".

BS: "Sorry, Liz...we thought that you and Woody..."

GTO: "Robin."

BS: "..That you and Robin were married."

GTO: "No. Was there something you wanted??"

BS: "Oh, yes..sorry. Er...the other two girls and I were wondering if you could help us with the lyrics."

GTO: "Carry on."

BS: "OK" (rustles thriough sheets of paper) "Where are we...? Oh, yes....this one called 'Iceluck Blink'...."

GTO: "'Iceblink Luck'"

BS: "...Blink Luck, yes.....it IS 'walnut' that you sing, yes?"

GTO: "Yes. Anything else you're stuck on?"

BS: "OK" (rustles thru sheets of paper again) "Oh, yeah....there was another thing we were stuck on..."

GTO: "Which was?"

BS: "Absolutely everything else."

GTO: "Ah, just make it up....it's what everyone else will do."

See? Wouldn't have been too difficult for her, would it?

zed

Dec-4-02, 11:42 AM

.....ROTFLMAO!!!

..........."WOODY"" :D :D :D

ZED!

mmmender

Dec-4-02, 12:00 PM

*standing up*
it's not 'walnut'!!
*sitting down*

:D ballerina :D

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 12:03 PM

I'll ring the Ronettes and tell them to scratch that then.

mmmender

Dec-4-02, 12:05 PM

jericho! not cherry coke
and wall not safe! not walnut safe

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 12:09 PM

I don't need to get the book, Lees...I know about the Jericho propaganda. It's just that "walnut" would make asmuch sense in a Cocteau song as "bunion".

The words don't matter.

Have you been on the pedantic medicine again?

mmmender

Dec-4-02, 12:16 PM

if people start to think i'm religious after this i'll kill ya philip! :)

"In the Old Testament, in Joshua chapter 6, we have an account of the Israelites defeating the city of Jericho when they came into the Promised Land after wandering in the wilderness for 40 years. According to the biblical account, after the Israelites marched around the city once a day for six days, on the seventh day they encircled the city seven times. On the seventh time around, the priests blew the trumpets, the people shouted and the walls fell flat. The Israelites stormed the city and set it on fire. "

http://www.christiananswers.net/eden/jericho-march-painting.jpg

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 12:19 PM

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know all of that....just wondering why you were snapping at my heels.

Nipping...just nipping...like a terrier....

mmmender

Dec-4-02, 12:21 PM

i'm not snapping.
believe me - you'll know when i'm snapping.

the thing about the lyrics - it just had to be said.

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 12:22 PM

I know that I'll know (we could go on like this for hours).

Phil Lawton

Dec-4-02, 12:23 PM

the thing about the lyrics - it just had to be said

Sorry, Lees, but I've almost lost the will to live....what had to be said?

mmmender

Dec-4-02, 12:24 PM

tease!

stratton

Dec-5-02, 1:15 AM

You took the words right out of my mouth 'by the sea'. ;) I think the band started to get really tight and interesting around the HOLV tour. Liz sounded wonderful and the music from that era really lent itself to the live performance. The band sounded great on the 4CC tour(live drums included) but Liz was obviously having some difficulties. By '96 they pulled it all together and the two gigs I saw in Boston and NYC were the finest live shows I have ever attended. They were having a lot of fun and that really came across.

Lucibelle

Dec-5-02, 1:48 AM

Getting back to the original question...;)

Keep in mind that Liz has a very unique tone to her voice, and that she'd have to find others who could match it. Not easy. Besides, I know what it's like to do your own harmonies and it's a hellofalot easier than trying to teach them to somebody else. And in Liz's stuff where she's not harmonizing but adding another flavor of vocal texture, I think the effect of hearing another voice attempt this with Liz would be....unpleasant. You'd really have to find THE compatible voice, and I know that I've never heard it.

Enya was interviewed a long time ago (can't remember specifics) and she said the reason she did not perform live was because she could not reproduce the harmonies in a live setting. I know Enya's not Liz, but you get the idea.

I don't know if I'd want anyone but myself doing my harmonies, even in a live setting. I'd prefer to sing with a pre-recorded base, and add the appropriate live elements. I too, enjoy the studio works too much to hear them taken too far out of context in a live setting simply because of limitations. The best shows I have seen were the ones where all the sound elements of the studio version were there, just played a bit differently.

As for the drums, I have no fucking idea!! :D

Phil Lawton

Dec-5-02, 3:38 AM

Luce

I hear what you're saying (I lie...I read what you're saying), but if the big, fuck-off reel-to-reel was good enough for Il Duce Guthrie to provide the guitar textures (surely as "unique" a piece of the overall sound as the voice), why couldn't they have used it for the GTO's harmonies?

I feel it was a decision based on the unpredictability of the lyrical content of each song. (See my post a few ago, regarding the imaginary conversation between Liz and the Fraserettes).

santeras

Dec-5-02, 4:56 PM

Personally I think backing singers (if they'd found the right ones - NOT easy I know) would have enhanced the live sound, thats not to say that theres anything wrong with what they did live, just that it would have added an extra dimension to the sound.

For all the improvisation that Liz did onstage, the vocals followed a basic melody for the most part, they wouldnt have completely changed some of their 'signature' melodies so any backing could simply have been nondescript (for want of a better word) vocal chant.

I could be wrong and no doubt some of you will heartily inform me I am, but thats the joy of free speech. That and the fact that I am always correct.
;)

On a similar note, did they ever have any 'special guests' on vocals ever?

John.

crushed

Dec-5-02, 5:45 PM

Dominic of the band Cindytalk sang backing vocals (sorta) on a couple of the first BBC tracks the band recorded.

ScottL

Dec-5-02, 6:54 PM

Nice thread...my quick thoughts, I missed out on much of the live stuff, but it seems to me the hardest part to finding good backing vocals would be compatibility...I think that was true with Robin and the drum machine thing too....so I am not surprised the real drummer and backing vocals thing didn't happen, except much later for the drummer part....but then only live...

I can see how most choices of backing vocals wouldn't work well...but I think I agree with Santeras here in that good backing vocals would be just that, in the back...relatively simple backing vocals , if well positioned with good dynamics would probably be a great benefit to Liz's vocal acrobatics.

Personally, I (potentially) like it all, intimitate dry recording as on Twinlights, layered studio recordings esp in in BBK thru FCC, live experimentation(not so much on the FCC tour for me either tho)...the pretense of 'Liz is too good for backing vocals' seems silly to me....it just may not have been appropriate or well done, thus better avoided...but they could have worked with the right people, and very well if you ask me. Vocal harmony is delightful...and such a wide range of possibilities..from totally aweful to utterly amazing...

What makes the most sense to me is that Liz just couldn't/didn't find compatible people...it is a rare thing....same with drummers..I think finding a good drummer greatly enhances the music(and I do enjoy drum programs). The human element behind rhythm in realtime shouldn't be underestimated in its potential, just because so many bands fall back on rather lame drumming choices....

orange rind

Dec-19-02, 9:19 AM

liz using backing vocals live would be just as wrong as bjork or tori amos doing that.

Phil Lawton

Dec-19-02, 9:28 AM

Why?

And Bjork and Tori Amos are bad examples - they're not known for layer upon layer of vocals....LF is.

Phil Lawton

Dec-19-02, 9:43 AM

Oh, sorry, I was forgetting.....Liz Fraser is the female, flesh and blood incarnation of Jesus, isn't she?

Letting another vocalist onto the same stage would have been as taboo as getting caught with your hand in Mother Theresa's knickers.

Please forgive me.

someotherian

Dec-19-02, 6:47 PM

Originally posted by orange rind
liz using backing vocals live would be just as wrong as bjork or tori amos doing that.
just out of interest (or to be picky depending on how you see it), bjork does use backing vocalists live. or at least she did in her more recent performances.
i don't know about tori amos, neither do i care! :)

as for your comment phil.. this is the woman you keep referring to as the Golden Throated One, but now you seem to be saying she's not that great after all. what's up with that?

you'll be telling us you don't like Underwater next. :rolleyes:

oh and incidentally, mother theresa lied. it was the bloke standing next to me! ;)

curetwins

Dec-19-02, 8:53 PM

Originally posted by mmmender
backing vocals are for people with thin voices. liz doesn't need backing vocals, plain and simple.:cool:

exactly leesa, enough said... i think they were comfortable being private people and artists.. more people more problems!

-jeff:D

Phil Lawton

Dec-20-02, 3:45 AM

Ian

She IS the Golden Throated One, but she is NOT some divine being who can do no wrong.

There seems to be a definite fear of honest criticism of anything Liz-ish here or on other boards - what's everyone scared of? Her getting offended and pulling the new CT album?

Great singer, strange and frustrating career decisions.

ScottL

Dec-20-02, 9:26 AM

Bravo Phil, I agree

REPLICESS

Dec-20-02, 4:35 PM

IMO
Her voice is far too unique (sp?) for anyone to back her, although I seem to remember singing with Lawrence from 'Felt' working very well :) (such a cutie and a lovely bloke)

orange rind

Dec-21-02, 4:05 AM

rian, you're right, bjork does use backing vocals, but those are big choirs, which she used on vespertine, and it's just not the same thing as lauryn hill or erykah badu (respectively) use on their concerts.
sure bjork and tori don't use layering as much as liz fraser, but even still i think it's more interesting to see ct work their way out with vocals on concerts, instead of trying too hard to make their performances be as close to the studio recordings as possible. aftert all that is the joy of seeing a live performance.
i'm certainly not saying that liz is the best singer in the world or that she has the most unique voice ever, but ct are so much about her voice and it would be dumb to see other vocalists singing HER layers just so as to add up to the richness of a live performance, because she (they) doesn't need that.

Phil Lawton

Dec-21-02, 4:56 AM

Orange Rind

So tell me this - were you attracted to CT by their live sound or their studio sound? What makes their albums so appealing?

1) Guthrie's guitars - layer upon layer of "twiddles" and washes of sound. Following your line of logic, why did CT bother to use a) a tape player on stage to provide the extra pieces and b) extra musicians towards the end if not to provide a "richness" to the performance?

she (they) doesn't need that

Seems they did on the guitar front, at least.

2) Fraser's vocals - Pick a song - any song - by CT. 8 times out of 10 (perhaps more), the whole ethos of the track has veneers of Fraser's voice intertwined with Guthrie's guitars. I've argued many times that lyrics didn't matter, because LF's voice was used as an instrument, rather than a voice. Now, if it was neccesary to multi-track both to obtain the required effect on disc, it seems odd that a key component of that sound (the voice) was left solo for live performances.

I'm not a fan of CT's live stuff, which probably does nothing to persuade me to the opinion that LF could cut it live. However, to endear you to my theory, check out CT's live performance of "Summerhead" from 'Later With Jools Holland' (it's on Mmmender's excellently produced live VCD). Two extra guitarists, a real drummer and the backing is almost bang-on wigth the album track....and then the GTO starts.....um....singing? It's on the point of being embarrassing. One can plainly see the look on the Japanese guitarist's face that he's not happy; "Hang on...Guthrie's been verbally kicking the shit out of me to get these guitar parts right....I've rehearsed until my fingers bled...what the hell is she doing?"

Ditto the rendition of Carolyn's fingers from the same show. Awful. If I'd paid good money to see that tour, I'd have felt cheated. When I go to see a band, I expect them to at least ALL attempt to give me a fair rendition of the material. Liz's warbling and scat singing just didn't cut it.

The attempt at "Bluebeard" on the Jay Leno show is another prime example. CT, presented with the opportunity to gain a few people to the fanbase, blew it with Liz singing the b-side version of the vocals to the a-side version of the backing. Messy and disappointing.

And as for her voice is too unique for anyone to back her, how come she has no problems doing duets with the likes of Peter Gabriel?

Sorry, that just doesn't cut any ice with me.

Lucibelle

Dec-22-02, 11:29 PM

Doing a duet with someone and appearing as an addition to someone else's work, such as Peter Gabriel, and finding backing vocalists to do Liz's textures live, is like comparing apples to oranges. They're just two completely different situations. Personally, I think the best solution would be for her to lay down pre-recorded vocals for the shows, then sing the main vocals live. I still feel that finding the 3-4 people needed to do backup would be a near impossible task, as well as taking away from the overall experience. I think the majority of fans would not be satisfied with ANY configuration of background singers, no matter how good they were. If you were actually able to find 3-4 singers that sounded like her to do the job, I think that would be a problem as well. The idea that there is ANYONE out there that sounds just like Liz would take away from the concept of 'there's only one Liz' that so many CT fans subscribe to. I think it would be a serious let-down.

Now, if she had ever done a show with pre-recorded Liz being played in the background, THAT would have been the pinnacle of their live sound, in my opinion. :cool: But, as we all know, it's just speculation! ;)

zed

Dec-26-02, 7:58 AM

Luci...........it may be the slightly poor guality of the video, but,
yesterday i was watching some CT vid, and my favorite piece, the live snub, orange appled came on and i could swear there WAS a taped backing vocal..... it may have been done for a period of time and ultimatly abandoned. or..it could have been a guitar effect.....anyone with a better guality video/sound copy could verify it i imagine.

:cool: Z.

mmmender

Dec-26-02, 10:03 AM

i fucking hate bjork!!!

(there. i said it.):cool:

zed

Dec-26-02, 11:54 AM

MMM........don't feel bad....i never liked her either.

GOD!! what load offa my chest!! :D :D

Zballerina

dynamine

Dec-26-02, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by mmmender
i fucking hate bjork!!!

(there. i said it.):cool:

"and if you complain once more,
you'll meet an army of me"

E-Lo

Dec-26-02, 12:22 PM

Bjork's OK, although I think she sometimes takes the Icelandish artsy-elf thing a bit too far.

Phil, I also think Liz sounded awful during FCC era. It is like she was trying on purpose to sound like a dolphin in heat. Totally ruined all the softer songs with that bizarre bleating. I read somewhere she intentionally did it to piss off Robin Guthrie, who's been known to be a complete control freak/asshole at times. Does anyone know if this was true?

However, she more than made up for on on the M&K tour. Its a pity because they really got their live act down on that tour!

ScottL

Dec-26-02, 1:18 PM

Originally posted by Lucibelle
...
Personally, I think the best solution would be for her to lay down pre-recorded vocals for the shows, then sing the main vocals live. I still feel that finding the 3-4 people needed to do backup would be a near impossible task, as well as taking away from the overall experience. I think the majority of fans would not be satisfied with ANY configuration of background singers, no matter how good they were. If you were actually able to find 3-4
...

I totally agree with you there...I always though the task of finding the right backing singers would be next to impossible...just about like finding the ideal mate...but cool if so, anyway, I think your right many CT fans would be let down no matter what with other singers, I'd be open minded as always. The prerecorded vocals thing however would have been much more doable for them given the preprogramming of the drums, maybe not as easy to do well early on....and while some CT fans would dislike that too, I think it would give here the chance to share her live intimacy while retaining some cool backing elements of the song that she freely could put in in the studio...and better, she might have started to improv with that too. I think that is the best idea yet Luci, to me anyway. Too bad it is mere speculation at something long gone...as you said...

Originally posted by mmmender
...
(there. i said it.)
Indeed, I am sure it was very hard to share that character assessment too. :)

mmmender

Dec-26-02, 3:04 PM

Originally posted by ScottL
Indeed, I am sure it was very hard to share that character assessment too. :)

you wanna know what's really hard? dealing with people who think they know me when they don't. (i'm not pointing fingers here scott, i'm just using this opportunity to make a statement). have you ever experienced that situation when people think they know you but they really have no fucking clue? well that's my life on a daily basis. i just thank my lucky stars that i'm not famous because i don't think i could stomach the scrutiny.

Lucibelle

Dec-26-02, 3:20 PM

But you ARE famous, mmmender! :D At least here, anyway... ;)

mmmender

Dec-26-02, 3:27 PM

Originally posted by Lucibelle
But you ARE famous, mmmender! :D At least here, anyway... ;)

thanks for the good laugh luci!!!!!

btw, now that the xmas season is drawing to a halt are you gonna be around here more to play twister with me? ;)

ScottL

Dec-26-02, 3:39 PM

Originally posted by mmmender

you wanna know what's really hard? dealing with people who think they know me when they don't. (i'm not pointing fingers here scott, i'm just using this opportunity to make a statement). have you ever experienced that situation when people think they know you but they really have no fucking clue? well that's my life on a daily basis. i just thank my lucky stars that i'm not famous because i don't think i could stomach the scrutiny.

Absolutely, me too...it seems inevitable that character distinctions get mixed up with the reception of the material...I don't think I know you or anybody, I say what I say...if you think something I've said implied otherwise, let me know, I'll try to respond rationally as humanly possible for me, but you said you weren't pointing fingers so maybe that is just a general statement. anyway, you said you hate Bjork, did you just mean you don't like the music she made? I'm not suggesting I know you or your tastes(actually I figured your comment was more pointed at the recent personal criticsim of you by nevery, right?)...when someone says they hate someone it strikes me as odd...maybe it is normal for you to say so meaning you just don't enjoy their art, it isn't for me..but if that is all you meant, I understand...just don't relate to the manner of delivery. Peace.

mmmender

Dec-26-02, 3:51 PM

scott kudos to you for always remaining cool and having such eloquent replies. myself on the otherhand....i tend to be a bit more quick tempered and vulgar....again, depends on the mood, situation, etc. when i say i hate bjork the exact translation of my statement is that i greatly dislike her music and find her quirky antics tiresome. that being said i'd much rather listen to a bjork cd over shania twain - but i think that this is a given. i have many close friends who adore bjork and we often have good heated conversations about music (contrary to popular belief i do enjoy a good bit of heated banter).....many of my friends can't stand cocteau twins - i assure you it makes for an interesting night over a bottle (or two or three) of wine.

indeed to each his/her own. i'm not stricken by personal attacks, it takes quite a bit to ruffle my feathers!

peace right back at ya scott! :)

Lucibelle

Jan-13-03, 12:18 AM

Originally posted by mmmender

thanks for the good laugh luci!!!!!

btw, now that the xmas season is drawing to a halt are you gonna be around here more to play twister with me? ;)

Yes! I'm fa-la-la-la'ed out!! Time to hang up my costume for another year! Thank God it's washable! :rolleyes:

ps. It's good to see the site back up. And GREAT JOB!!! I LOVE the new look!!! :D

Hale

Jan-14-03, 1:00 AM

Originally posted by mmmender
when i say i hate bjork the exact translation of my statement is that i greatly dislike her music and find her quirky antics tiresome. that being said i'd much rather listen to a bjork cd over shania twain - but i think that this is a given.

The English language needs a new word specifically for what you have just described. Because by that definition, there are a lot of artists I "hate," and many people (including the other members of my band) would probably find me a lot less abrasive if there were a more polite way of saying so.

mmmender

Jan-14-03, 1:49 AM

Originally posted by Hale
The English language needs a new word specifically for what you have just described.

ok then..........how does 'slighate' suit you? combo of 'slight' and 'hate.' works for me.

Hale

Jan-14-03, 4:39 AM

Doesn't particularly roll off the tongue. How about "disenjoy"?

Phil Lawton

Jan-14-03, 4:49 AM

Hale

If you're looking for soemthing that rolls off the tongue, what about "clitoris"?

Certainly sums up one or two artistes.

mmmender

Jan-14-03, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by Hale
Doesn't particularly roll off the tongue. How about "disenjoy"?

'disenjoy' is good but far too common.
any other selections?

(i'm enjoying this way too much)

mmmender

Jan-14-03, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Lucibelle
Yes! I'm fa-la-la-la'ed out!! Time to hang up my costume for another year! Thank God it's washable! :rolleyes:

ps. It's good to see the site back up. And GREAT JOB!!! I LOVE the new look!!! :D

luci, good to have you back, you were missed! glad you like the new digs.

Hale

Jan-15-03, 2:05 AM

Originally posted by mmmender
any other selections?

All the others I can think of sound either too legalese ("malapprehend") or are made of unrelated syllables that don't add up etymologically ("declude"). This modified language business is more difficult than I thought it would be.

mmmender

Jan-15-03, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Hale
This modified language business is more difficult than I thought it would be.

here's where ms. fraser would reply............"touché"

someotherian

Jan-15-03, 4:33 PM

except that she'd pronounce it "too-ow-wow-wowww-sheeay-ya-ya-yaaa"... ;)

Rex

Jan-16-03, 4:17 AM

interesting points.

for the record, however, i must say that i think ms. fraser reached new heights with 'this love' and 'teardrop', as both are perfectly complimentary backdrops to her keen, gorgeous verse.

mmmender

Jan-16-03, 9:45 AM

aw c'mon......how can you say that?
those song are so middle of the road compare to the brilliant vocal displays on albums like 'head over heels'!!

someotherian

Jan-16-03, 6:59 PM

indeed.

in fact they're so middle-of-the-road they should have a white line painted down them..

Hale

Jan-17-03, 12:11 AM

"Teardrop" was catchy and had a nice, scratchy backing track, but it's probably my least favorite of the Mezzanine tracks. Actually, I prefer "Group Four"; I think her vocals on that one sounded a lot richer and more idiosyncratic.

Rex

Jan-17-03, 12:53 AM

sheeesh... wasn't expecting such strong disagreement with the affirmation of those songs. i suppose it must just be differences of musical tastes.

in contrast to your sentiments, Hale, 'teardrop' is the only great song on mezzanine (well, okay, the first track has that killer buildup that slams into a driving drum beat). Liz offers a subdued yet mature and intricate display of colors against m.a.'s music on teardrop... especially when she sings that line "... fearless on my breath...". it still brings a smile.

it could also be that i was so starved for liz's sonic beauty (since twinlights) that as soon as i heard those two tracks, i instantly fell in love with them.

Rex

Jan-17-03, 12:58 AM

by the way, it looks as if 'by the sea' was taken by an epiphanic moment in that photo... nice.

ScottL

Jan-17-03, 12:34 PM

Rex, I thoroughly enjoy 'This Love', I don't personally think it is a new height as you say, and compositionally I think it lacks development, but critical opinion has nothing to do with why I like it, it just feels warm in my heart(cheesy as that sounds)...also it reminds me of my previous thoughts, that Liz vocals over lush strings and orchestration has the potential to be brilliant, I wish more of her energy displayed in BBK thru FCC could be combined in this format. I always thought a lot of opera would sound better with intimate Liz vocals rather that those screeching voices drowning in vibrato which predominate opera. I also couldn't figure out why musicals(as a general rule) annoy me to no end...is in the cliche, narrow, stereotypical approach so many use, or rathar trying to cram story lines into lyrical passages? Probably a bit of both in most cases....

mmmender

Jan-17-03, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by ScottL
I always thought a lot of opera would sound better with intimate Liz vocals rather that those screeching voices drowning in vibrato which predominate opera.

shit. can you just imagine a cocteau twin opera? liz singing and in the orchestra - richard thomas, harold budd, brian eno, daniel lanois and michael brook.

*faint*

mmmender

Jan-17-03, 1:14 PM

no i didn't!

;)

mmmender

Jan-17-03, 3:17 PM

nah, i'm not a huge fan of mark clifford's so i left him outta my operatic dream on purpose.

E-Lo

Jan-17-03, 6:01 PM

I was so excited to hear Seefeel after learning that Robin Guthrie was a fan, but can you say BORING? I rushed out and bought QUIQUE and some unnamed 4-track. It so damn monotonous! However I think the offshoot SCALA (3/4 ex-Seefeel) was a lot more interesting.

Hale

Jan-17-03, 6:12 PM

Sometimes music seems monotonous or cacaphonic until you've heard it a few times and figured out the pattern to it, after which it becomes a lot more enjoyable. Most music has an internal order which, once understood, reveals hidden little complexities you might not otherwise have noticed.

mmmender

Jan-17-03, 7:37 PM

well put hale! i'm pretty rotten when it comes to patience for music though....and i find myself saying "hmm i didn't really like this on the first listen" which translates to me possibly not playing it again for weeks or even months. i know that i'm missing out, but i'm stubborn when it comes to music, especially if it's music that falls out of my usual genre.

Lucibelle

Jan-17-03, 7:47 PM

I'm very much the same way, mmmender. If I don't like it, then it sucks!! :D

:rolleyes:

mmmender

Jan-18-03, 9:58 AM

Originally posted by by the sea
can you deny though that his reworkings of wax and wane, aloysius, pitch the baby & seekers aren't brilliant?

i think that the 'dance/trance' sound that clifford added to those tracks stands alone.....i still wouldn't want him involved in an opera!

ScottL

Jan-18-03, 1:48 PM

yeah I agree with mmmender about the opera lineup, Lanois guitar would be perfect for opera, what an idea....and I'm not much for clifford at all...as for which opera, I thought Liz would make Mozart's Requiem truly magical

I too agree with Hale's comments...I'm at a time(in my life) of far more patience now, I have stuff in my collection I used to love to listen to but am tired of, while some I used to love and now hear in a new light(actually Rush is that way, after highschool I mostly had them on the shelf...but have a recent audio engineering type appreciation, and the guitar...however Neil Peart just seems like a bigger cheese ball than ever :) ), and still others I didn't ever get into but am finally finding a way to appreciate....so many layers of complexity or depth...

some music I can tell I will never like at first listen, others definitely set in with more listens, I get those the benefit of the doubt...quite a few things have really set in that way, generally more intricate stuff or very slow patience demanding stuff is that way....the things I know I'll never like typically have a specific sound that has to grate on me something fierce...but generally speaking I try not to make any conclusions until after 3-5 listens...
I've tried to do that with Flaming Lips, a friend just gave me a copy of the Yoshimi... album, still haven't gotten over that hump, it keeps annoying me...heh....I generally try to forget what I think and reapproach things as blank as possible...

mmmender

Aug-17-04, 2:49 PM

:bump:

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 1:38 PM

{bump}

.....if the big, fuck-off reel-to-reel was good enough for Il Duce Guthrie to provide the guitar textures (surely as "unique" a piece of the overall sound as the voice), why couldn't they have used it for the GTO's harmonies?

Phil makes a good point here.

i think this may be what i'm getting at also.

why not give it a go at Coachella?

ie., make an attempt to capture a fuller dimension of the original spirit and intent of the songs as done in the studio.

ctblue

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 2:20 PM

I'm sure, back in day, they were criticized for using reel to reel.

Of course they did do it again on The White Room with Marc Clifford, Seekers Who Are Lovers. The end result being, the taped vocals sounded greater than Elizabeth's lead live vocals. I think she was having a shitty day though.

Anyway, that can be a problem.

Whereas, the BBC version of Seekers is way superior. Even excelling the M&K's studio version.

Call me crazy.

Baddy2shoos

Feb-8-05, 5:00 PM

her voice on that is amazing when she does that growling sound or whatever it is...

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 5:35 PM

For me, it's that pristine, initial vocal corona that always does me in, B.

The BBC sessions are hot, man. A totally new dimension. I'd hate if Cocteau pulled a Goldfrapp and their live shows were a complete replica of their studio sound.

Now go swirl Violaine, BBC version of course.

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 5:41 PM

sorry.

i think The BBC Sessions is as dry as two day old toast.

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 6:02 PM

Look, looney-tunes, you listen to a bunch of ethereal crap I can't tolerate either.

I say let Cocteau be what it wants to be, and not what you expect it to be. Just a thought.

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 6:12 PM

Look, looney-tunes, you listen to a bunch of ethereal crap I can't tolerate either.

I say let Cocteau be what it wants to be, and not what you expect it to be. Just a thought.

okay.
let's just agree to disagree, hon.

there's plenty of room for all kinds here.

kiss kiss.

:explode:

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 6:21 PM

there's plenty of room for all kinds here.

This says a lot.

... thank you for allowing me space to breathe, Your Highness.

andylama

Feb-8-05, 6:22 PM

Look, looney-tunes, you listen to a bunch of ethereal crap I can't tolerate either.

I say let Cocteau be what it wants to be, and not what you expect it to be. Just a thought.
Just a thought, eh?

Was this at all necessary?

dan699

Feb-8-05, 6:26 PM

I also remember reading somewhere that Liz actually considered using Eddi Reader(Fairground Attraction) as a backing vocalist on the 4CC tour but decided against it in the end. That would have been really interesting. Eddi thanked Liz in a recent album liner notes for her vocals on 'Take Me With You', which as most of you know was the track Liz contributed to 'The Winter Guest' soundtrack. I guess they're friends.

Two of my all-time fave vocalists (Liz being No.1, of course). Interesting. Never read that before. But "recent album" is a bit misleading. "Angels and Electricity" came out in '98, I think.

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 6:32 PM

This says a lot.

... thank you for allowing me space to breathe, Your Highness.

hey.
anyone under Watchlar's bed is okay in my book.

:)

what a pleasure it is to have someone as outspoken as yourself among us nowadays.

let's have more of your firey breath, please.

xxx

:)

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 6:39 PM

Was this at all necessary?

Necessary to what, your limits?

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 6:41 PM

Necessary to what, your limits?

oh dear.

:spear:

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 6:49 PM

Come on now, we're just chit-chatting here. Stop being so dramatic.

Phil Lawton

Feb-8-05, 6:53 PM

I'd almost forgotten all about this thread...how prophetic of me.

Prediction 1)

Liz will have some sort of backing at the Coach and Horses gig, be it live, taped or digital.

Predictions 2)

A sort of long, meandering prediction, this, so stick with me for a while. I promise not to hurt anyone or even bruise a hymen along the way....

Does anyone else not get the sneakiest feeling of a carefully orchestrated revival strategy here? In no particular order....

1) Robin and Simon become regular contributors to the main (sorry Mike Borum, but this place has wrested the mantle of "main" from the .com site) web home of CT fans.

2) The remasters are released.

3) Liz comes out of hiding with two low-key pieces - the Robert Wyatt song and the piece for that museum which shall (due to my crappy memory) remain nameless.

3) Robin tours in the USA with the "Lumiere".

4) The "surprise" Coach and Horses gig is announced.

Let's extrapolate....Liz, Robin and Simon get together in the same room (which room? Common ground...a studio?) to discuss the possibility of a gig.

Liz: "Do the bare bones of the album we started still exist?"

Fast forward to the summer; post-gig, the band is interviewed by a BBC type:

BBC: "So, Robin, does this signal a return of CT as a recording entity?"

Robin: "We'll have to wait and see."

CT then sit back and monitor the BBC website, along with as many other media-related websites for reaction.

The "unfinished album" is dusted off.

I'll bet everything in my mother-in-law's purse that the CT appearance at the Coachella gig features the following phrase at least once:

"...And this is a new song...."

Mark my words...I have this knack for predictions...my old headmaster once told me that I could develop a cult following. It sounded like "cult", anyhow.

Toodles.

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 7:01 PM

Have you been toying with that Ouija board again?

Phil Lawton

Feb-8-05, 7:05 PM

Have you been toying with that Ouija board again?

It's stuck in a loop...I can also hear the voice of Dwayne Allman shouting "I'm knocking, I'm knocking....ask me another fucking question, already, I AM here!"

by the sea

Feb-8-05, 7:13 PM

Ask him if he's still got the bell bottom blues.

fredofla

Feb-8-05, 7:15 PM

oh, sweet prophet Pip.

Prediction 1 (Liz with vocal backing) still seems the longshot here.

tho i'll admit Prediction 2 has a certain perverse logic to it.

and i'd for sure settle for a few new CT songs in late April.

yeah, that might even be worth a bit of desert dust and cruel heat.

:)

I'd almost forgotten all about this thread...how prophetic of me.

Prediction 1)

Liz will have some sort of backing at the Coach and Horses gig, be it live, taped or digital.

Predictions 2)

A sort of long, meandering prediction, this, so stick with me for a while. I promise not to hurt anyone or even bruise a hymen along the way....

Does anyone else not get the sneakiest feeling of a carefully orchestrated revival strategy here? In no particular order....

1) Robin and Simon become regular contributors to the main (sorry Mike Borum, but this place has wrested the mantle of "main" from the .com site) web home of CT fans.

2) The remasters are released.

3) Liz comes out of hiding with two low-key pieces - the Robert Wyatt song and the piece for that museum which shall (due to my crappy memory) remain nameless.

3) Robin tours in the USA with the "Lumiere".

4) The "surprise" Coach and Horses gig is announced.

Let's extrapolate....Liz, Robin and Simon get together in the same room (which room? Common ground...a studio?) to discuss the possibility of a gig.

Liz: "Do the bare bones of the album we started still exist?"

Fast forward to the summer; post-gig, the band is interviewed by a BBC type:

BBC: "So, Robin, does this signal a return of CT as a recording entity?"

Robin: "We'll have to wait and see."

CT then sit back and monitor the BBC website, along with as many other media-related websites for reaction.

The "unfinished album" is dusted off.

I'll bet everything in my mother-in-law's purse that the CT appearance at the Coachella gig features the following phrase at least once:

"...And this is a new song...."

Mark my words...I have this knack for predictions...my old headmaster once told me that I could develop a cult following. It sounded like "cult", anyhow.

Toodles.