DCD/CT connection?

[E-Lo]

I have had an unanswered question buggin' me for many years now, and I know someone in CT-land knows the answer. On Dead Can Dance's 1st album, the liner notes thank Robin. I have always been curious about Robin Guthrie's connection with DCD. Did he play guitar for them? If so, what songs?

[fraserfaye]

I think it's just some of the intercommunication. Not a whole song.

[mmmender]

here's hoping they had nothing to do with each other cos i can't stand dcd!

[glint]

I remember reading somewhere that Robin played guitar on a few of the songs on the first dcd album, and helped with some of the drum programming as well...

[ScottL]

Originally posted by by the sea


i actually think THEY sound new age, where as the cocteaus truly are from some other unexplanable realm.

summerhead now ~

DCD sounds 'new age'? That's a new one to me, I don't see that at all. Any examples?

I think DCD gets a regular bashing here, funny such a wide array of music as they made is so unanimously and uniformly hated...but not too surprising. I get sick of Brendan Perry's 'kill me now' voice and lyrics, but even some of that appeals to me if in the mood, but aside from that, I think they explored several interesting areas of music with varied success. Serpents Egg and Aion are still my favorite era.
But I best not bother with this discussion here...LOL!
---
I always thought the first DCD sound was reminiscent of Garlands era guitar layers...I can't stand most of that album, but a few songs are pretty neat. After the 1st album, I don't think DCD was ever as close to CT in sound as on the 1st album, and even then only in a minor minor way.

[dynamine]

Originally posted by mmmender
here's hoping they had nothing to do with each other cos i can't stand dcd!
oh my,it just keeps getting worse!:eek: LOL!;)

[Lucibelle]

Well damn! I don't know WHAT to say. I LOVE Dead Can Dance, ESPECIALLY Brendan Perry! I've always preferred his singing to Lisa's, although I do enjoy her as well. But I truly LOVE them! Always have.

I've never understood the connection between them and Cocteau Twins, though. It's never made sense to me. Oh well. C'est la vie! (did I spell that right? ;))

[steven]

I also love DCD, but I can also see how Brendan Perry's voice may grate on some people. To this day, DCD is still one of my favorite live acts when they were around. I

Steven

[E-Lo]

Thanks for the information Golden Vein (btw, I noticed you are in Rosemead -- cool 'cos I grew up in Monterey Park) its just amazing to think Robin worked with them at one point. DCD are great and yes they put on an incredible live show. Too bad they are no more

[E-Lo]

oops meant Glint! sorry for the frou frou faux pas

[dynamine]

Originally posted by E-Lo
Thanks for the information Golden Vein (btw, I noticed you are in Rosemead --
what the.....that's where i live!

[E-Lo]

This will teach me never to post after a bong hit! :confused: I was referring to your hometown Dynamine (Rosemead). I grew up in Monterey Park & went to Alhambra HS so thought it was way cool to see where you are from! Oy vey, feel like such an idiot right now!

[dynamine]

that's ok!,but don't feel like an idiot.bong hits for breakfast huh?
LOL!!!!!:D

[ScottL]

Originally posted by by the sea


there is no rock element to it. there is no hard side.

the cocteaus are all about gentle then hard.
whereas dcd tracks always seem to be only soft flatliners sailing through ethnic waves of crystals and positive energy.

i'm simply not moved by dcd. scottl, i asked you in another thread if you had any good depressing classical music to recommend? maybe you do? i would appreciate that.

well, first, if your aren't moved, that is your taste and I understand...so I'm not speaking to that...

about rock element, I agree CT may be more, but I don't think either has much of a rock element in particular

for hard edge, I don't agree. I think DCD does have some hard edge in that they don't simply try to make fluffy soft music exclusively. When I think of that(in the 'new age' category) I picture Enya and Vangelis...not even a hint of a hard edge there.
For DCD songs with a slightly rougher edge(off the top of my head) I guess I'd say:

[list=1]
Threshold (DCD) others from this album, but I like the
engery in that song...
Cantara (In the Realm of a Dying Sun)
Black Sun (Aion)
The Ubiquitous Mr. Lovegrove (Into the Labrynth)
Desert Song (Toward the Within)
I am Stretched on your Grave (Toward the Within)
Woud You Say Its Love (bootlegs)
From Above (bootlegs, not sure of the title, but it has a line, "I believe in 'God' that doesn't leech(?) from above, but lives inside" anyone know this one? it is in 5/8 incidentally)
[/list=1]

I'm aware these aren't to your taste, but they sure as heck don't seem like soft fluffy new age to me...
---

About the classical music, I musta missed it, which thread(I'm curious to read it if I hadn't yet)? For more sombre classical music, I'm not sure I have many good examples. What kind of style? Choral, symphonic, chamber music/small ensemble? Any of the above?

I will still say Neptune from Holsts' the planets is still one of my all time favorite ethereal symphonic works.

Watchlar mentioned Arvo Part, and I've not checked out much, but much was very sombre or soothing, and some harkens back to medieval chant, stuff like Palestrina. Seems the cultural sway through the baroque and classical period didn't lend itself to much sombre music...until late classical and romantic era...where we seem to get considerable bombast...from Beethoven through Mahler, Brahms, and Wagner etc...

And I'm not a big fan of Mozart...so much is very unstimulating to me....I still get chills when I hear Lacrimosa from his Requiem though. Sorry I can't be of more help, my exposure to historical music(while more than the average person) is fairly spotty. I like hearing what others like though...that helps.

[Lucibelle]

Originally posted by dynamine
bong hits for breakfast huh?
LOL!!!!!:D

Wake n' bake!!! ;)

[Adam]

I like DCD! I love Brendan's "Eye of the Hunter", very sad, for me listening to this album is a katharsis... And Lisa's (and Hans Zimmer's) "Gladiator" - opening track is absolutely amazing...

[dynamine]

Originally posted by mmmender
here's hoping they had nothing to do with each other cos i can't stand dcd!
then just out of curiousity,how did you feel about the selected
tracks that some CT&DCD folks did on TMC="it'll end in tears"?;)

[ScottL]

Originally posted by by the sea

problem has also been they give me a false ethnic feel that doesn't agree with me much. but like i said i'll give em' another shot.
Hmm...yes, well I considered that as I was first exposed to them ~95. At the time I was in to indian and asian music but was a bit tired of the trend of 'world' music that had become a common thing. Anyway, I'm not sure what DCD was exactly trying to sound like. In time I didn't much consider that, I just found the rhythms and instrument choices too interesting to not like. But it is true they use a variety of ethnic instruments, I think they just tried to do cool stuff with them...I'm not sure they were claiming any sort of ethnic authenticity to begin with. So that may not jive with you in the end....personally I think they suffered from sometimes overt repetition, I actually have about 1CD mix of stuff I like best really now...but since we're into it(and its been a while since I listened to much DCD...) Really my 4 fav albums in the middle years(which I can give you a better style reference) would be:
[list=1]
Within the Realm of a Dying Sun - There more 'gothic' sounding in perhaps the suerficial sense. Very gloom and doom I guess, but on the plus side has very full sounds with keyboards and small string and woodwind ensembles...the fullness in 'Persephone(The Gathering of Flowers)' still appeals to me. They really started working on lush string sections and brass more in the previous album(Spleen and Ideal) but it had more remnants of the rock ensemble.
Aion - Their most Rennaissance sounding years, drawing specifically from 14th/15th century italian chants and dances. It has a fairly raw sound to me, less 'produced' sounding to me. This album has a greater use of varied percussion.
Serpents Egg - Ceremonial/Chant style music, sparser instrumentation in cases. The woodwinds at the end of 'Severance' are simple but always give me chills, although I don't think it is one of his better vocal parts. Probably the most mellow total DCD album. There are a few moments of percussive work, but they are more isolated.
Into the Labrynth - The longest studio album(I think), was DCD's Four Calendar Cafe IMO...they had mastered their style/production/mixing to condense it into a the most varied and certainly most cleanly produced album. They were working with a larger ensemble live at this time too I think. And had fairly elaborate percussion arrangements which are right up with Peter Gabriels 'Passion' for me. I think this was their peak and it is followed by the best live album I think I've got, 'Toward the Within', Which should be a good culmination of these 4 albums and the live sound they had. As Luci and Steven can vouch, in person probably much better...
[/list=1]

I really don't care if you don't like any of it, honest, thank goodness for Kazaa ;) But this might illustrate style differences...the involved percussion predominates most of them,maybe you will like a few tunes on only one of these 4 albums...maybe only the live...dunno...but there it is. Enjoy


Originally posted by by the sea

anything depressing really.
i'm heading to kazaa to look for Holsts' neptune, Mozarts' lacrimosa, and watchlars' Arvo Part. thanks again!

Well if you like Gregorian Chant, I enjoy the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo du Silos. They have some work which is done in a less traditional style due to the use of organ backing...which I was fairly impressed with, in how it slid behind with suble harmonies.

If you do like Holst, I think Venus and Saturn are both quite nice, Saturn is fairly intense. Isao Tomita did an electronic version of the Planets too in the 70's, which although dated, is not so cheesy sounding as Switched on Bach :)

Lastly, I guess I should throw up Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings....a token 'sad' piece used in the aweful movie 'Platoon'...I still think it is a great string piece anyway.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by dynamine
then just out of curiousity,how did you feel about the selected
tracks that some CT&DCD folks did on TMC="it'll end in tears"?;)

i quite enjoyed those tracks, in fact - loved them. but DCD on their own were always a tad too pretentious and 'world music' sounding for my taste.

[spanglemaker]

Pretentious? no way they always seemed so open minded and well, they just glow. Severance is one of my favorites. Theya re fabulous. Although some of their music is not my favorite, some just make me get chills. I love thosw songs that get under your layers of hidden emotions and bring them forth.

[glint]

If I'm not mistaken, doesn't the band Heavenly Bodies have a few ex-dcd instrumentalists as members? Robin remixed a track for them.

[dynamine]

Originally posted by spanglemaker
[B]Severance is one of my favorites.
one of mine also,though i still enjoy listening to Bauhaus,i
think they fucked it up.(on the Gotham disc)as a matter of
fact,i'm listening to disc 1 of the box set.

[Coalmind]

My God, i cant beleive how many of you hate DCD. You have to remember in the early 90's it was probably DCDs output that ensured 4ad kept its reputation after the cocteaus left. The only connection they have is they were both on 4ad and both labelled as pretensious arty types, and that Robin helped out with dcds first album. On the subject of singing, both Liz and Lisa are untrained vocalists and look how otherworldy they both made their respective bands sound. For those of you who are unintiated with dcd id definately give them a try out, they dont sound remotely like the cocteaus but that can be a good thing sometimes!!!!DCD make music like the cocteaus that is capable of inspiring a range of moods and feelings, and shouldnt be knocked because of a lack of "perceived" talent. Im surprised Leesa doesnt like them maybe she hasnt gave them a chance or is being too precious about her love for the cocteaus (and i dont mean to cause her any offence here).
Anyways for anyone willing to give them a try, then the ideal place to start would be the 4ad 3 cd collection, or try downloading these tracks: - Threshold (1984)
Musica Eternal (1984)
Ocean (1984)
In power we entrust the love advocated (1984)
Ascension (1985)
Avatar (1985)
Indoctrination - a design for living (1985)
Xavier (1987)
Cantara (1987)
Summoning of the muse (1987)
Persephone-the gathering of flowers (1987)
The host of Seraphim (1988)
The writing on my fathers hand (1988)
Ullysess (1988)
The arrival and the reunion (1990)
Song of the sibyl (1990)
Black sun (1990)
Radharc (1990)
Yulunga (1993)
The carnival is over (1993)
The spiders stratagem (1993)
How fortunate the man with none (1993)
+ pretty much all of towards the within lp and spirit chaser lp

on a final note DCD were much more experimental live and most live tracks remain unreleased and are often superior songs than ones that ended up on lps, so try and find some of these out :- wating under the tree, storm, bylar, greek rembetiki

[Phil Lawton]

Gayboy

It's not strictly true that Liz Fraser's voice is untrained. She received tuition (just pre-"Treasure", I believe) from the same woman who coached Roland Orzabal, Tony Hadley and (get this) Johnny Rotten, amongst others. The coach's name escapes me (Eileen Something?), but she's in the Pistols' "Great Rock & Roll Swindle", where she talks about her sessions with John Lydon, does "Submarine" on piano and sings it GTO-style.

Bizarre.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by gayboy27uk
My God, i cant beleive how many of you hate DCD.

i never used the word 'hate'

[dynamine]

Originally posted by mmmender
i can't stand dcd!
oh the shaaame!lol

[mmmender]

"can't stand" and "hate" are two different things in my book mister! :p

[beetles&eggs]

Originally posted by Lucibelle
Well damn! I don't know WHAT to say. I LOVE Dead Can Dance, ESPECIALLY Brendan Perry! I've always preferred his singing to Lisa's, although I do enjoy her as well.


I agree, while Lisa's voice is great, the songs that Brendan sings on are amazing. I love the way his voice twists and turns through each song, it's so beautiful.
phil

[mmmender]

i prefer brendan's voice over lisa's

[dynamine]

Originally posted by mmmender
"can't stand" and "hate" are two different things in my book mister! :p
i know,that's why i put the quote.
:p

[ScottL]

Thought I'd jump in as this thread resurfaced...
1st) gayboy27uk: only 2 people(bts and mmmender) expressed not liking DCD...so I thought the response was relatively good...but I'm used to avid dislike in response to DCD. Also, I was listening to Indoctrination(all of S&I actually) and thinking about how cool those lyrics are...depite Brendans proclamational(sic) type lyrics, he real does nail it for me and how I feel about much of society. I go from totally digging it to not wanting to dwell on it, but when focused on the matter, his social critique is really quite good in my view.
2nd) Vocalist preference...I am not nearly as moved emotionally by Lisa's singing, but I generally find it quite interesting...songs like Tristan and alot from Aion and Serpent's Egg really gets me going. And also, even despite some of her wailing being a tad irritating, I admire the experimentation she was willing to do...in this light, I'm reminded of some of Liz's experimentation...even that which many may not like(live FCC era?) is respectable due to her willingness to experiment. Frankly, a singer without bad notes is likely not adventurous enough, mastery of a familiar art is one thing, but in uncharted waters...never know what you will find, the exploration is most stimulating to me, bringing me to...
3rd) I saw someone post(on another forum) how he didn't like DCD, he'd rather listen to 'real' Medieval music or whatnot...I thought to myself, "Great, let us know when you are able to go back in time"...authenticity is a subject of many arguments, be it in music, cuisine, you name it..I don't know what DCD was trying to be like, but their focused exploration in various historical and ethnic styles has always intrigued me, I think their approach was quite genuine, was it authentic? Who knows, not me, not even sure what that means, I've heard very lifeless renditions of medieval music which left me cold, the opening track on Aion raises hairs on my back(if there are any :) )...

Lastly, feeling strangely like prostrating myself before the crowd...as Adam mentioned, Brendan's lyrics, while sometimes quite sombre can be quite cathartic, or have been so for me. So I thought I'd share my own cover:
Anywhere Out of the World (MP3 cover) (http://www.mid-west.net/~slillis/aootw.mp3)

I should, if you bother, please know it was a recording exercise, I made the MIDI(the notation part) long before and had sung over it for fun, so with my new setup last year, I laid down a quick cover. Mostly electronic plus bass, guitar, and vocals, done by me..I've worked on rougher versions of Xavier and The Arcane....if you like any of that DCD material, I'd certainly welcome the feedback(positive or negative, unless to tell me nothing but how much you hate it, in which case it seems pointless).

[mmmender]

oooooooooooooooh scott, i'm melting!!

[mmmender]

ok, i've listened to it several times and now i'm ready to give you some feedback that's a bit more tangible than my above reaction! lol....mind you, it's a pretty good initial reaction. ok, i'll say this - keep in mind that i'm not really a fan of DCD music but i definitely like what i hear! so that in itself should give you some idea how i feel about your cover version! it's very crisp and the sounds are eerie. and then there's your voice - is that really your voice? it's astounding, very, very rich and sultry! well done scott, thanks for being brave enough to share.

[watchlar]

Great Scott!!! wow I made a funny

Thanks for sharing that with us....really great job!
W

[Lucibelle]

Just had bad memeories of "The Rocky Horror Picture Show"!

:rolleyes:

[anelan]

I have a couple of CDr's compiling all the best DCD songs and Lisa is on all of them. Brendan gets on my tits! BTW, in this context getting on my tits and hate ARE definitely the same thing (just in case Mmmmendy was wondering, bless her).

[ScottL]

anelan: that is fine, I didn't think you had tits though....but for further diatribe on the distinctions of 'hate' check out the latter part of the 'Drums and Backing Singers' thread, if you haven't already :)

mmmender and watchy, thanks for the compliments, I don't so much mind sharing, just tend not to as it often is of little value..I'm not looking for a reputation or a musical 'career', but every so often I am quite curious at what the reactions may be...and perhaps mmmender, you may be more open to it due to not being a fan, ironic as that may seem. Anyway, it was just for fun...I'm not much about making covers, just have a few pet projects which are good exercises and which I can also get into on an emotional level, and besides, I wouldn't be crazy enough to share the CT ones... :)...not yet anyway

Anyway, I'm more into original/new material. And as time goes by I feel much less of an attachment to what I believe is 'mine' in music, indeed I just want to make something I WANT to HEAR...so I try and try until I find something I like...alot of garbage along the way...no reason to take pride in music I made which I like, just as there's no reason to feel shame for the music I made which I don't...though I'm not always guided by reason :)
Cheers.

[mmmender]

Originally posted by ScottL
...I wouldn't be crazy enough to share the CT ones... :)...not yet anyway

awww c'mon scott, we wanna hear!!!!!!
i promise to be gentle.:D

[E-Lo]

Yes Scott! Your other music is impressive so please share.

It can't be anywhere as bad as a minimal, deep house version of "Blue Bell Knoll" I tried to do a couple years ago!

[mmmender]

Originally posted by E-Lo
It can't be anywhere as bad as a minimal, deep house version of "Blue Bell Knoll" I tried to do a couple years ago!

and so, when do we get to hear that????:)

[E-Lo]

Thankfully that version of "Blue Bell Knoll" is lost as it was done on an ancient 4-track cassette (like car stereo kinda thing).

These days I do stuff on a PC, so I'd be happy to share some of that. It's not at all CT sounding, as I've been into a lot of dance music (house), misc. electronic, and stuff like Thievery Corporation these days. I don't know how to set up nifty hyperlinks on a server (a la Leesa and Scott), but I do have a broadband connection if that helps . . .

[mmmender]

have you got some server space somewhere?

[ScottL]

Originally posted by mmmender


awww c'mon scott, we wanna hear!!!!!!
i promise to be gentle.:D

Ok...I haven't done much in the CT arena, and really am not that good at reproducing the CT sound...and I may regret this....not only because I'm on a CT board sharing it...but keep in mind...my range fits Brendan's fine...Liz is beyond me(for more than just range too!)...needless to say I haven't tried to sound like her...

I only have an Itchy Glowbo Blow track..well a cheesy 'Seekers' track I did a ways back, and stuck Mel's vocal she had on Steve Jones FTP site, If you can recall back to spring 2001 on ct.com...

anyway, the Glowbo cover is definitely far less impressive than my DCD or original stuff...as the note on the page(follow link below) will indicate, I originally was just trying to reproduce the lush distortion guitar layers at the end of the song....still the only part I am pleased with...so here goes nothing(unlike the other link, this is on my home server, which can be spotty, but usually does about 3MB in 1 minute, also the address recently changed, I hope it won't again anytime soon, let me know if this link doesn't work, thanks)...
My MP3 demo page (http://65.26.91.108:8888/mp3/index.html)

[mmmender]

*downloading*:D

[mmmender]

scott, the track is brilliant, thanks for being brave and sharing it with us....i can't say i'd have the balls to do the same so kudos. the music is lovely, you did an amazing job of recreating the sound. as for your voice - it's hard to not make immediate comparissons to fraser and think that something is wrong - but you've done a fine job considering you are nowhere near her range. your voice reminds me a bit of david byrne...have you ever been told that before? i hope you see that as a compliment cos i think he's fab. anyway, thanks again scott.

[E-Lo]

Scott, that was so cool -- thank you for sharing! Your guitar skills are awesome. How did you get that neat-o Guthrie distortion down?

Originally posted by mmmender
have you got some server space somewhere?

Leesa, I just checked and I have 10 MB of disk space and 300 MB of bandwidth per month. Unfortunately I am a complete novice when it comes to setting up servers, only know how to do basic mIRC :(

[ScottL]

Thanks for being kind! :) I know I mangled lyrics and vocal melody, and being fond of the original version of both, must be hard not to associate, I woulda worked harder at it...but it felt so utterly beyond me, I stopped with the vocal take which annoyed me least, funny in this and the other song the take I ended up liking best had messed up words on accident...and I have no vocal training, and could certainly use it...but it was quite fun to play with....also you are welcome to get the music w/out vocals.. mix over a vocal track...a proper one :)

The guitar mostly involved my tube distortion, with high distortion setting, low gain, then run through modulation effects and some sorta transparent delays, then recorded off my Roland JazzChorus amp, with a SM7 large diaphragm, also what I use for voice. it has a crisp high end, but generally isn't good for hard-rock distortion used, too thin. Good for the layers at the end. I shoulda level my wailing off of those layers at the end too...kinda got carried away there. But I have recent effects additions to get a better RG sound I hope, it is a Paradox TZF Flanger, with a expression pedal for those whooshing sounds :) We all need some of those :) So I think I can beef up the main guitar line a bit.